Too Much $$?

[kkroger]

Client wanted a bid on some parts.
See Attached Pic, the Square part is 4x4 inches, All Large Holes are 2.5" all small holes are .250.
All parts approximately 3"x4.75" the diamond shaped part is about 8" OAL, by 3" wide... all specified at 14 Ga Cold Roll.
Fractional Tolerances...
Client wants a full sheet of each at a time, 4x8 or 5x10 They also want a "Handle" made from 1.5x.125 Flatbar... with a reverse radius bend, and a couple hard bends. 288 parts on a 4x8 sheet average, for the square, never tried to nest the others but I could probably get a third more of them on a sheet.

I bid the parts at $4.25 each... The Handle would be a bit more due to the Drilling and bending.

Client's complaint is that they currently make them on a borrowed table, but they are very rough and they spend too much time cleaning them up I can make them with no cleaning necessary...
Customer Balked at the price...

[rikduk]

i came up with 3.00$ each square piece, for a sheet of 4x8 with 288 pièces, no cleaning.

He"s working on a BORROWED table, that costs him what, almost zero?
Wathever your price, its gonna be too high!!

[kkroger]

i came up with 3.00$ each square piece, for a sheet of 4x8 with 288 pièces, no cleaning.

He"s working on a BORROWED table, that costs him what, almost zero?
Wathever your price, its gonna be too high!!

I know... He wants parts that don't require him to do any cleaning so I would knock the edges down after cutting.
Currently he says his parts are extremely rough and require a lot of grinding...

I am not going to give them away... if he wants to keep doing them himself let him. Thanks!

[CNCCAJUN]

First question I have is what type of setup do you have that will let you cut 100's of holes in 14 gauge with no cleanup . . ? I can't do that . . .

My guess is your client is reselling these parts . . . so he is already in a lowball corner . . .

I think your price is very reasonable . . . you want to make money not turn your table into a piece of by the hour rental equipment . . .

I learned years ago if you do work cheap in hopes of getting more work, you will . . . Get more cheap work . . .

My 2 cents,
Steve

[kkroger]

Never said I wouldn't be doing cleanup I said HE wouldn't be...
I'll make smoother cuts to begin with and cleanup will be minimal.
Quick swipe on the belt sander no problem.

[CNCCAJUN]

Never said I wouldn't be doing cleanup I said HE wouldn't be...
I'll make smoother cuts to begin with and cleanup will be minimal.
Quick swipe on the belt sander no problem.

Whew . . . you had me thinking I was really slacking . . .

Thought you may be running HD Plasma . . .

Good luck . . . get $$$$$

Steve

[beefy]

If I've done all the calculations correct and got the correct job report from Sheetcam, that cut would take a bit under 2 hours to cut out a 4x8 sheet filled with the squares. I did do everything in a bit of a hurry mind you.

At $4.25 per piece for the squares, for one sheet, I'd be grossing nearly a $1000 dollars in profit over material costs. I'd be quite happy with half that profit for 2 hours of table time, + cad time, etc. And then if I was cutting all the other bits out, the money is flying in. Averaging half that price for 4 sheets (the 4 parts) I'd be getting $2000 for a days work. I'd be more than happy with that as gross profit. I don't even get that in my little excavation business for 3 full days work, so I'd consider even that easy money, and even if I worked 12 hours to get it.

At $4.25 per piece and cutting 4 sheets in a day (averaging that profit per sheet) I'd be getting about $4k gross profit, all for one days work. I'm sure the competition is going to do it much cheaper.

Please anyone feel free to "correct my thoughts" on this but I look at this as cutting in bulk, all at once with low material costs. $4.25 per piece seems rather expensive to me.

Keith.

[SeanP]

Yes I was thinking the same Keith, based on a full sheet of the squares with 5 holes I would be quoting near enough half that amount, about 1.5hrs cutting time I got without any problems!

[tnbndr]

I would be little cheaper if he wants entire sheets cut at a time. Beside cutting time you have to figure in cleanup.
Have you cut a sample for him to make sure your cut and minimal cleanup is acceptable?
I would also do some research to see what he is reselling them for if possible. Obviously he is trying to make the most profit, as we all are.
If $4.25 is where you are comfortable I would stick to it.

[kkroger]

Not resale he is the end user they are parts for what he makes

[illusivedf]

Could probably have them laser cut for less than a $1 each in about a 50+ qty, I have out sourced some parts to a local laser shop for parts about that size in 1/4" for less than $2 each in qty.

[beefy]

Love to hear if anyone else has any thoughts on the laser guys.

From what I've heard this is just the type of job they like to do, and seeing as they get their material a lot cheaper than we do, they can give a decent price.

Isn't our strength doing something with a very fast lead time, or doing it at a weekend, or one-off custom designed stuff. Jim Colt has a pricing write up somewhere on the forum here. He made good money doing a bunch of nested shims for some steel erection company I think, BUT they wanted them yesterday and it was the weekend. Jim had them ready for the beginning of the following week.

Keith.

[muzza]

Unfortunately where you are Keith is Laser Cutting Central, Victoria has more laser cutters than any other part of Oz and I'm told by a couple of the companies selling laser cutters that there are more in the Dandenong/ Springvale area than the whole Sydney metro.
I went through the costing exercise when I was offered more work from two of my bigger customers if I put in a laser setup when I was over there. Problem is that quite a few of them are really running on the edge and needing to make big repayments so are basically buying work.
It's not so much they have a better buying price because they don't buy much different than me. Volume always gets a better rate so someone using my volume is going to get a better rate than someone using ten or so sheets a month but my old shop is still spending around 30k a month and don't buy a whole lot better than me on cut sheet. None of the smaller to middle sized laser guys I spoke with were buying coils which is the cheapest way to get your sheet and the most cost efficient if your in production work.
As for turnaround times etc. I've had laser guys offering me same day service at crazy low prices and a quality that I can't match. The laser guys actually get a bit pissed that I can have them supply and cut and I make 10 times what they do on the job. The volume work is what they are all chasing so it's very competitive but as things get quieter they do chase some of the lower volume too but personalized and low volume suits me and keeps us busy. I've worked out I can make more on volume jobs by farming them out.
Murray

[Shane Warnick]

FWIW I would be around a $1.50 for sheet quantities on that square part.

Shane

[beefy]

Unfortunately where you are Keith is Laser Cutting Central, Victoria has more laser cutters than any other part of Oz and I'm told by a couple of the companies selling laser cutters that there are more in the Dandenong/ Springvale area than the whole Sydney metro.
I went through the costing exercise when I was offered more work from two of my bigger customers if I put in a laser setup when I was over there. Problem is that quite a few of them are really running on the edge and needing to make big repayments so are basically buying work.
It's not so much they have a better buying price because they don't buy much different than me. Volume always gets a better rate so someone using my volume is going to get a better rate than someone using ten or so sheets a month but my old shop is still spending around 30k a month and don't buy a whole lot better than me on cut sheet. None of the smaller to middle sized laser guys I spoke with were buying coils which is the cheapest way to get your sheet and the most cost efficient if your in production work.
As for turnaround times etc. I've had laser guys offering me same day service at crazy low prices and a quality that I can't match. The laser guys actually get a bit pissed that I can have them supply and cut and I make 10 times what they do on the job. The volume work is what they are all chasing so it's very competitive but as things get quieter they do chase some of the lower volume too but personalized and low volume suits me and keeps us busy. I've worked out I can make more on volume jobs by farming them out.
Murray

Cheers Murray,

always good to hear the reality of things so I know where I stand. Ha ha, I can understand the poor laser guys not being too happy when their quarter million dollar machine makes a lot more profit for us than what they make.

Keith

Keith.

[beefy]

FWIW I would be around a $1.50 for sheet quantities on that square part.

Shane

I still consider even that reasonable money. I got 253 peices on a sheet so that's $380. The sheet of steel would be about $90 so that's $290 gross profit for 1.5 hours cutting time ($193/hr). I could be doing other things while the table is doing that cut. Assuming there's not much cleanup needs doing that's still OK money considering the capital investment in the machinery producing it.

Keith.

[Shane Warnick]

For comparison,
I nested the square part out and being generous with part and edge spacing (0.25") I put 242 on a 4'x8' sheet. A sheet of 14g that size runs me $50. My cut time is just over 1 hr 10 minutes, and I figure another 30-45 minutes for digging them out from under the table etc and scraping a little dross off. May just throw them in the tumbler and let it handle them, would just depend. I doubt the tumbler would get all the dross, especially around the small holes, but maybe. If not, I would have one of my minions clean them (the midgets that run around here and suck up all my cold air and groceries) and bundle them together 25 a bundle. If I did the entire job myself, including loading the sheet, and picking them up and cleaning them, and bundling, I would be around 2 1/2 hrs all in, max. I would figure $80 cost all in (steel, electricity, consumables, flap disc, wear on the grates and machine, etc. I would still profit $283, or roughly $113.20 per hour. If I make the minions handle the secondary ops while I am cutting something else, the profit goes up. Unless they screw around and don't oil the right angle die grinder again ..... Alas, that is a different story. Anyways, I am not sure what kind of numbers everyone else is shooting for, but I am happy as long as I am above $100 / hr NET profit. Now if I could get busy enough to have 12 hrs a day of cutting, 5-6 days a week for say 50 weeks a year, I would be REAL damn happy.

Shane