Worse machine I ever owned

[Fastyankee]

I'm not sure about other Star Lab owners but my machine has not been reliable in fact I have not been able to complete one job with out issues. I’m not sure if my machine was built on a Friday or they just suck this bad.
This Star Lab has cost me thousands of dollars in lost revenue and material.
I have been doing CNC plasma since 2008 and so I’m not new to CNC plasma. I owned a Shop Sabre which was a great machine with only one issue I always had back burn on my cuts . Which is a Z lift issue that they won’t address. I had a Torchmate as my first machine which was an absolute POS . But actually I think this Star Lab is the front runner on being extremely unreliable.
I’m very disappointed after owning this machine since April I have not been able to complete one job with out issues.
At this point I should have bought another Shop Sabre and I’m actually regretting not buying another one.
Will see how the company takes care of me so far it’s been an absolute disappointment.
I have video of every issue with this machine.

Buyer beware the Star Lab is not a reliable machine !

[djreiswig]

Mine's been very reliable, and I've had great experience with their customer service when I was trying to learn how to use it. Maybe things are different now.

[adbuch]

Andrew - I would be interested to see some of those videos showing the problems you have been having with your table.
Thanks,
David

[adbuch]

The only complaint I could find was the one below where the owner was complaining about having height control issues. Andrew - what specific issues are you having with your StarLab table?

David

Star labs height control problems.jpg

[adbuch]

Untitled.jpg

[BTA Plasma]

Whoa! It is important to note that having an issue on the weekends can be frustrating. Tech support available from M-F but rarely on weekends. Looking at the email string it looks like you mostly were using this machine on weekends. You have not gotten any formal training on it. You experienced some issues with a computer. It also says you were very happy with the cuts and you said it was much better than previous machines it terms of quality and cut. What happened? Why the resentment towards your machine? Also keep the language clean when emailing in for tech. By the way my name is Ben R. and I am happy to help you out.

[BTA Plasma]

Adbuch oh yes a bad review can happen when a person does not take the time to understand the machine. Think about settings that the user can play with and how that can affect cut quality or if it even cuts. If a user buys a brand new million dollar laser and hooks up wet shop air to it or decides they will try to cut a thicker material using a thinner setting or thinner using a thicker setting yes you bet it will have an issue. This is why a technical support line is important. If someone decides they would rather trash the Mfg than reach out for support that is protected by free speech. A Star Lab can do much more than virtually all other machines out there. But settings are typically tucked away so operators do not cause issues. I do not know all the ins and outs of this particular customer but following the email strings back and forth it appears there may be a confusion of material and sheetcam tool on his latest issue. If anyone is having an issue please reach out to us. There is nobody here that will turn you away and you can reach any of us on the number on the screen or the bridge of the machine. That number is 1-855-433-3689 and just tell anyone that answers your issue and they will guide you through that issue to cutting well.

[weldguy]

I have heard nothing but great things about the StarLab tables so I am sure your situation could be easily resolved. No plasma table goes without any issues, so many variables involved. Sounds like a phone call to them could get you sorted out pretty easily.

[BTA Plasma]

AJ are you having a better time now?

[SegoMan DeSigns]

AJ,

People here want to help you and your ghosting your own thread. I can certainly understand your frustration but your not helping the situation out by dropping a post like that and not following up on replies.

[adbuch]

Just out of curiosity - what kind of thc does the Star Lab table use, and is there a manual available for download that would explain how to calibrate the height control? Also- does the control software for the Star Lab provide for adjusting corner acceleration? Their website says it uses FlashCut and I took a look at that manual, but I did not see anything about calibrating the height control.

For my Plasmacam table- the Design Edge control software has these features, and typically when someone with the Plasmacam table complains about the torch diving into the table the solution would be to autocalibrate the height control and possibly to set the corner acceleration to a smaller value than default.

Thanks,
David

[djreiswig]

It's probably a candcnc system. That's what mine is.

[BTA Plasma]

After talking with AJ this may have been impulsive. He is in the storm in Florida right now so he may not have the ability to update.

[SegoMan DeSigns]

Thanks for the update BTA.

[adbuch]

After talking with AJ this may have been impulsive. He is in the storm in Florida right now so he may not have the ability to update.

Andrew had indicated that he was having problems with the torch diving into the table while cutting, or that sometimes the torch fails to turn on, starts to move, then turns on after it’s already started the cut path. Were you able to help him to resolve these issues, and if so - would you care to share with use what solutions you were able to offer. This information may be helpful in the future for others experiencing similar problems.

Thanks,

David

[BTA Plasma]

Torch diving was done by re-opening CommandCNC and opening a program and running from a line in the program without first initiating the run button to set up all the height control commands (Wrong voltage). Started to move before torch turns on was having disable hold checked. User error from a lack of experience with the system and winging it. This is why we put our contact information on the front of the machine and the background of the controller screen.

One of the bonuses of having THC commands come from Sheetcam is that you simply pick the Amperage/Material combo and the preset volts, pierce delay, THC delay are all set. But the huge bonus of CommandCNC is that it will take the preset voltage but also sample at the same time which is unique to CommandCNC and yields the best possible cut because not all material is the same thickness (example...14 ga .072 vs .078). And those Commands are located in the first few lines of code. So running the code to run a program set the height control up.

The buttons for Disable torch and Disable hold are very handy for dry running

Disable torch with disable to the torch AND the search for arc ok

Disable hold will disable the search for arc ok

When starting halfway through an existing line having disable hold and disable torch checked and then uncheck disable torch at the post where it left off it will seemlessly cut while traveling. BUT if you dont have disable hold checked and uncheck disable torch there is a small delay from the arc ok getting from the hypertherm that can leave a tiny divot. Keep in mind that the elegance of LinuxCNC (Used by Haas, SpaceX, Nasa, Brother CNC...ect) is that it has a real time kernal and read position and THC commands at light speed. Having these buttons available and available through G and M code coming through sheetcam allows you to do things that no other system will allow at this level. One example is that you can use a M62 P2 to shut the torch off a few thousanths before the end of the cut to blend the cut while maintaining nodal accuracy leaving no divot. Its a genius integration. I would liken it to a F1 race car with an F1 steering wheel. You can drive it in 1 gear and beat all other cars on the road or you can use all the paddles, dials and buttons to completely dominate. But if you are in 1st gear and you just flipping paddles, twisting dials and pressing buttons you may end up in a ditch.


-Matt

[Fastyankee]

Sorry for the delayed response I was kind of dealing with the hurricane that was hitting Florida.
Like I stated this is my third machine I'm far from new to Plasma CNC and how they operate so to say I have not had formal training not sure about that since I have been doing this since 2014. Discrediting your customer and saying all my issues are because of operator error is a cop out and not very professional.

I also don't claim to be a know all on plasma cnc's . One of the things about CNC plasma is your always learning.

With every new machine there is always growing pains with set up and working the kinks out. I don't care what machine you buy. At least with my experience.
I have been dealing with the torch diving into the table the scribe sometimes working sometimes not and basically dealing with a very unreliable machine. With that said I have had this machine since April of this year and I have had issues with every job I have run on it. Its cost me thousands so far in lost revenue and ruined material.
Matt suggested looking at my air supply. Which that and voltage will cause a diving torch and erratic operation so I'm not at all surprised to hear him say that.
I have 175psi operating pressure in my shop with an inline Refrigerated air dryer inline desiccant filters four total two particulate filters right before my machine. I have a constant 100psi supplied to the machine. It never drops below 100psi ever! Good air quality equals good plasma quality. My shop also has central air which in Florida cuts the humidity in my shop way down.
Matt suggested I put an air gauge right before My air line goes into my plasma and scribe. Right now my gauge is before my filters. So I'm installing a gauge after my filter system so I will have a gauge before and after my filters. This will be Monday. As I told Matt nothing would make me more happier than finding the issue. What's frustrating is my experience with CNC plasma so I naturally check what normally causes these issues and I cant seem to find it. Yes I operate 7 days a week and I don't always have time to wait for a call back from tech. The fact that I have to go back to an M5 position on recovering from a crash is not always feasible. I'm not in the business of repairing CNC machines I'm in the fab business with $40,000 invested in to this machine and it only being a few months old its very disappointing at this point.
I posted here to see if any other owners are having issues with the hopes of a cure.
In my opinion the machine is very well built and the rails are very parallel which I have found to be the key to a very accurate cnc is the y axis being parallel, but it barley cuts 5'x10' the x axis liner gear is to short and should be at least 4" longer. I'm not a fan so far with Command CNC the operating system and I believe its the cause of my issues. I actually called Command CNC and never got a call back.
Still working on the cure at this point.
I will update the status once it changes.

[Fastyankee]

To add both Torchmate and Shop Sabre have voltage sampling, this is not unique to Command CNC.

[BTA Plasma]

Ok so the scribe sometimes does not turn on and the plasma cutter sometimes crashes the torch into the material from THC pushing the head towards the material. I think you may have found a possible commonality. But at one point you had reopened CommandCNC and that default tip volts to 120 until you set it by initializing the programing. I apologize but I think you also said it had crashed a few times when cutting and along a mid point in 1/4" steel. Putting a gauge at the back of your hypertherm will tell us if your filter system is dropping air volume and giving you line loss at the plasma cutter. I want to make sure to speak to all the issues or concerns you have so if someone has the same issue they can use this as a testament here on plasma spider. A 5x10 Star Lab will have 61.5x121.5 travels but the bed is 65x124 which leads to confusion. The wider bed was meant to vent hydrogen when aluminum cutting. I think if we stick with it AJ we can find a simple root cause. If it is your filter system that would explain both issues of crashed and scribe not turning on. The scriber takes 90psi to operate. If the scribe doesnt turn on typically that can be a line loss or the scribe being new and tight, not enough information to determine the issue yet. I can say with confidence these issue are rare. We do a checkup every couple of weeks with 600+ Star Lab owners using our FB group. We want owners and operators to come forward with their issues in any setting they can so they can be cutting smoothly. I will buy you a steak dinner from my own pocket if your root issues are coming from any electronics on that machine. Also there is no controller out there that uses sampling and preset volts at the same time like CommandCNC. All industrial controllers have sampling and a preset but you need to choose between the two not using them in conjunction. Let me know if I missed anything and let me know how it is going. Feel free to post up the good, bad and ugly of your experience. There is nothing I have enjoyed more than this industry during my work hours watching folks earn and burn and I and our staff are very happy to help out along the way.


-Matt

[tcaudle]

It helps to understand why a torch dives during a cut: I won't go it a bunch of theory. Under DTHC the torch moves OPPOSITE the voltage. The PRESET volts is the voltage you want the torch to maintain (like setting a cruise control ) That volage is a Target...you can't force it , it's from a chart and is based on several parameters not changing. The software changes the voltage by moving the torch up or down. The CURRENT (amps) at the cut has to remain at the set value. Bad connections on the workclamp can alter the actual current at the cut (where it counts). The Plasma will raise voles to try and keep current where it's set. For that reason we recommend a good clamp to the material being cut, not just clipped to the table.

The other factors can be more subtle. The feedrate, if it varies from the cut chart more than a small amount, will cause the voltage to change. That is why torches dive on corners and turns or when cutting detail and the reason we have VAD to sense that slowdown in real time and cut off DTHC until speed is back in tolerance. The slower you cut the less material is being cut and the voltage climbs.

Cutting too close to a void or edge will have the same effect but unfortunately VAD can.t catch that because there is no slow down. for the same reason VAD does not work at the end of the cut beacuse the fallout happens before the slow down happens. The EOC Cut rule is supposed to tunr off the DTHC before the end to avoid end dive. If you use long lead outs you may need to increase the distance in the EOC cut rule so it accounts for that

If you are getting torch dives its' because the voltage went up and its trying to correct..


Her are some suggestions.
If you are cutting thicker material SLOW things down. The DTHC is extremely fast and can cut very thin material and even corrugated. One of the features of CommandCNC is you can have as many CONFIGs as you want with named ICONS on the desktop. There are parameters in CommandCNC that control the reaction and the response of the DTHC and of the whole machine. For material thicker than 3/16" make a new CONFIG using the CONFIGURATION app . Copy a working plasma Config using the NEW button and name it "ThckMaterial" or whatever you want.
In the MOTORS part of the Config lower the Acceleration on all three axis to about 20 ips/sec It will make the VAD work better during a cut. You have precise tuning of the DTHC (Z) response in the THC tab of the Config tool Make sure the Response is set to SLOW . At the bottom you will see THC Max Velocity and THC acceleration (see pix below) Set the MAX velocity to about 70% of the recommended XY feed rates for thick material. Lower acceleration to 15. That slows down Z response DURING a cut. Other motion like torch lift and touch off run at base motor tuning speeds.

DTHCMotorSettings.png

If you cut lots of 1/4' or thicker you may want to make yet another CONFIG to lower the numbers even more. This wont fix cutting into a void but it will slow response so if its momentary it will not dive so fast,

With a little planning some issues can be avoided.

If you have a device that does not fire you need to look at the several tunings. The DIAGNOSTIC tab in CommandCNC will show you the status of every INPUT and Output and what is active. Most modules have activity LEDS on them. If it does not come on in Diagnostics it's a code issue. It it does come on and the port does not work it's a hardware issue. If the port goes active and the load does not, its a wiring issue. Most solenoid valve have active lights . If its a pressure issue the light will comev on but the value may not work or the load may not move.

I would suggest that if you want our help after normal business hours that you use the RFS form in the Support Section and give as much info as you can ; A lot of those get answered after hours and on weekends .

I know a lot of users want to send a video of the screen or of the table doing the bad action . Its kinda like watching a car wreck on video of the dashboard and trying to figure out what caused it. If you do send screen shots make it during a cut and then also show any error messages in that tab.
.

[adbuch]

Sorry for the delayed response I was kind of dealing with the hurricane that was hitting Florida.
Like I stated this is my third machine I'm far from new to Plasma CNC and how they operate so to say I have not had formal training not sure about that since I have been doing this since 2014. Discrediting your customer and saying all my issues are because of operator error is a cop out and not very professional.

I also don't claim to be a know all on plasma cnc's . One of the things about CNC plasma is your always learning.

With every new machine there is always growing pains with set up and working the kinks out. I don't care what machine you buy. At least with my experience.
I have been dealing with the torch diving into the table the scribe sometimes working sometimes not and basically dealing with a very unreliable machine. With that said I have had this machine since April of this year and I have had issues with every job I have run on it. Its cost me thousands so far in lost revenue and ruined material.
Matt suggested looking at my air supply. Which that and voltage will cause a diving torch and erratic operation so I'm not at all surprised to hear him say that.
I have 175psi operating pressure in my shop with an inline Refrigerated air dryer inline desiccant filters four total two particulate filters right before my machine. I have a constant 100psi supplied to the machine. It never drops below 100psi ever! Good air quality equals good plasma quality. My shop also has central air which in Florida cuts the humidity in my shop way down.
Matt suggested I put an air gauge right before My air line goes into my plasma and scribe. Right now my gauge is before my filters. So I'm installing a gauge after my filter system so I will have a gauge before and after my filters. This will be Monday. As I told Matt nothing would make me more happier than finding the issue. What's frustrating is my experience with CNC plasma so I naturally check what normally causes these issues and I cant seem to find it. Yes I operate 7 days a week and I don't always have time to wait for a call back from tech. The fact that I have to go back to an M5 position on recovering from a crash is not always feasible. I'm not in the business of repairing CNC machines I'm in the fab business with $40,000 invested in to this machine and it only being a few months old its very disappointing at this point.
I posted here to see if any other owners are having issues with the hopes of a cure.
In my opinion the machine is very well built and the rails are very parallel which I have found to be the key to a very accurate cnc is the y axis being parallel, but it barley cuts 5'x10' the x axis liner gear is to short and should be at least 4" longer. I'm not a fan so far with Command CNC the operating system and I believe its the cause of my issues. I actually called Command CNC and never got a call back.
Still working on the cure at this point.
I will update the status once it changes.

Andrew - thanks for your reply. Hopefully the fix will be something simple and the advise from Matt and Tom will be helpful to you.
Good luck!!
David

[cutnweld]

Never hurts to have gauge on back of plasma unit after the filters. Matter of fact I run 175 shop pressure, when my filters and dessicant get bad my inlet pressure will drop right down to 85 or less, I prefer to always keep inlet pressure above 120 tho. I seriously doubt you have a defective table, I built my own table but I really like the build quality of a starlab, I believe they are a company that takes pride in well built machines and will help you out.

[BTA Plasma]

Where you able to get an air gauge on the back of the Hypertherm?

-Matt

[Fastyankee]

I haven't responded to this because I'm currently working through fine tuning my air system. But here's what I found and sent pics to Matt.
As far as the scribe I think my issue is water contamination. see pictures. I also found oil in the first filter in my 4 filter set up. I have an oil filter and three descant filters in series. I did not find oil past the oil filter so its doing its job. I am in the process of add a motor guard filter before my 4 filter set up. I also added a water separator/ filter to the scribe an air gauge right before both the scribe and plasma. I should have more to report after this weekend. see pictures of my findings on the scribe.

Scribe2.JPG

Scribe1.JPG

[Fastyankee]

It helps to understand why a torch dives during a cut: I won't go it a bunch of theory. Under DTHC the torch moves OPPOSITE the voltage. The PRESET volts is the voltage you want the torch to maintain (like setting a cruise control ) That volage is a Target...you can't force it , it's from a chart and is based on several parameters not changing. The software changes the voltage by moving the torch up or down. The CURRENT (amps) at the cut has to remain at the set value. Bad connections on the workclamp can alter the actual current at the cut (where it counts). The Plasma will raise voles to try and keep current where it's set. For that reason we recommend a good clamp to the material being cut, not just clipped to the table.

The other factors can be more subtle. The feedrate, if it varies from the cut chart more than a small amount, will cause the voltage to change. That is why torches dive on corners and turns or when cutting detail and the reason we have VAD to sense that slowdown in real time and cut off DTHC until speed is back in tolerance. The slower you cut the less material is being cut and the voltage climbs.

Cutting too close to a void or edge will have the same effect but unfortunately VAD can.t catch that because there is no slow down. for the same reason VAD does not work at the end of the cut beacuse the fallout happens before the slow down happens. The EOC Cut rule is supposed to tunr off the DTHC before the end to avoid end dive. If you use long lead outs you may need to increase the distance in the EOC cut rule so it accounts for that

If you are getting torch dives its' because the voltage went up and its trying to correct..


Her are some suggestions.
If you are cutting thicker material SLOW things down. The DTHC is extremely fast and can cut very thin material and even corrugated. One of the features of CommandCNC is you can have as many CONFIGs as you want with named ICONS on the desktop. There are parameters in CommandCNC that control the reaction and the response of the DTHC and of the whole machine. For material thicker than 3/16" make a new CONFIG using the CONFIGURATION app . Copy a working plasma Config using the NEW button and name it "ThckMaterial" or whatever you want.
In the MOTORS part of the Config lower the Acceleration on all three axis to about 20 ips/sec It will make the VAD work better during a cut. You have precise tuning of the DTHC (Z) response in the THC tab of the Config tool Make sure the Response is set to SLOW . At the bottom you will see THC Max Velocity and THC acceleration (see pix below) Set the MAX velocity to about 70% of the recommended XY feed rates for thick material. Lower acceleration to 15. That slows down Z response DURING a cut. Other motion like torch lift and touch off run at base motor tuning speeds.
DTHCMotorSettings.png

If you cut lots of 1/4' or thicker you may want to make yet another CONFIG to lower the numbers even more. This wont fix cutting into a void but it will slow response so if its momentary it will not dive so fast,

With a little planning some issues can be avoided.

If you have a device that does not fire you need to look at the several tunings. The DIAGNOSTIC tab in CommandCNC will show you the status of every INPUT and Output and what is active. Most modules have activity LEDS on them. If it does not come on in Diagnostics it's a code issue. It it does come on and the port does not work it's a hardware issue. If the port goes active and the load does not, its a wiring issue. Most solenoid valve have active lights . If its a pressure issue the light will comev on but the value may not work or the load may not move.

I would suggest that if you want our help after normal business hours that you use the RFS form in the Support Section and give as much info as you can ; A lot of those get answered after hours and on weekends .

I know a lot of users want to send a video of the screen or of the table doing the bad action . Its kinda like watching a car wreck on video of the dashboard and trying to figure out what caused it. If you do send screen shots make it during a cut and then also show any error messages in that tab.
.

Sorry but my guise is your with Command CNC? Sorry for my ignorance but I'm new to Command CNC this the first table that I have owned that uses it.
I left a voice mail quite a while ago with Command CNC during business hours when I first started having this issue and never got a call back.
I'm familiar with the diagnostic tab and how to use it. As far as creating new configurations for thicker metal I never had to do that with any other operating system I usually just add rules in sheet cam for that which I have. That's new to me. AS far as VAD ( you me anti dive?) not sure what that is or I'm not familiar with the acronym. I will have to figure out how to do all of what you mentioned here because I just don't know the system that well yet and I cant seem to find any type of manual on Command CNC. Mat gives me small bits of info here and there on the system so I basically have been left to try and figure it out. Your like on chapter 200 and I'm on page 4. This is kind of like getting directions from someone who thinks I have been there before . What's with this having to go back to M5 to recover from a crash is this true?