THC Sliding mechanisms RATTMMOTOR HBX1605 Linear Motion Guide

[adbuch]

I like the simplicity of the Gecko G540 however it's only a 4 axes which would not allow for pipe/tube cutting

Why would you need more than 4 axes for pipe/tube cutting?
David

[N2 Welding]

x=1 axes, Y=2 axes, z=1 axes for a total of 4 axes. 1 driver per motor correct? If all 4 drivers are tied up into the xyz axes then there would be no more axes available for the pipe rotation. Am I missing something?

[adbuch]

For pipe cutting (assuming your pipe is positioned across the table parallel to the X axis) then you will need x, z, and only one of your Y drives for rotation. So total of 3 axes. That's how I do it with my Plasmacam based rotary tube/pipe cutter. This is for round tube/pipe.

If you intend to mount square tubing to your rotary, then you would need movement in the Y direction. Also, some cnc plasma tables only a single motor for the Y axis. Plasmacam is one or them. So if you plan to have a dual drive Y axis, then you would use up all 4 drivers just for your table.

David

[N2 Welding]

Yeah I have decided to build a 4x8 table so I’m planning to use 2x motors on the Y axes. I was looking at a six axes system earlier today. Also looked at Acorn and they use proprietary software as far as I could tell. Looked at the black box too.

Saw this video of in the field service diagnostics for the Gecko G540. Seems like an easy system to repair.

[Rodw]

I would like to see some photo's of Rodw's system. With all of this information thrown your way you have to decide what works for the budget you have allotted for the project. Start compiling information for your owners manual now and always allow room for upgrading down the road.

This is a milling machine I retrofitted with ethercat closed loop stepper drives fitted in a very tight 400mm x 400mm enclosure. MOst of the wiring is to do with the use of a safety relay.

ethercat.jpg

But a stepper requires a power supply. In this case its a 60 AC volt toroid. The drives can accept AC power so there is no DC regulator
An ordinary ethernet cable from the linuxcnc PC (the master) goes to the slaves which have an in and an out network port. All devices are chained together.
The Drives support internal homing where your home (and limit) switches is connected to the motor drive itself. In this mode, you just tell the drives to home and they do.
The I/O module on the door has 16 inputs and 16 outputs.

and one of the ethercat controlled motors.

ethercat stepper.jpg

So Imagine using mains powered servos instead of steppers. You eliminate the toroid and there would be no need to run 4 core wires to the motors.You could run AC power, and an ethernet cable to a drive located right beside the motor. the max and min limits and home switches would be connected to the drive. Then a similar IO/module could be fitted near the torch to handle all the float switches etc.

Its just an idea at this stage but you can get suitable mains power cables to handle the flex in a drag chain....

Back on topic, I would never use a G540 as if you had individual drives, you have a lot more flexibility with using them in different systems and ways.

[N2 Welding]

No offense Rod but when I look inside that cabinet full of spagetty wires going all over the place I can’t help but think I’d very easily get a head ache trying to isolate a short or open circuit with all those wires all over the place let alone EMI issues.

[Rodw]

yeh it is a mess. I wanted to get a larger cabinet but couldn't at the time so there was no room for slotted conduit.
Its amazing the difference between a 400 x 400m cabinet and a 500 x 500 mm makes. Here is a plasma controller I did at the same time

plasma panel.jpg

[Rodw]

I might add the mesa based plasma control box probably has 5 x the wiring to connect. Same power supply, same safety relay, same 24 v power supply, same fan.

[N2 Welding]

LinuxCNC is free? That’d just be one more cog in the wheel I’d have to learn. I really don’t want to get overwhelmed with trying to learn too much all at the same time then get frustrated and give up after dumping a lot of time and money into this. This is my main reason for wanting to stick with “ as previously mentioned “ windows based software I.e. Microsoft Windows. So looking for a controller board and software based on that platform.

[N2 Welding]

yeh it is a mess. I wanted to get a larger cabinet but couldn't at the time so there was no room for slotted conduit.
Its amazing the difference between a 400 x 400m cabinet and a 500 x 500 mm makes. Here is a plasma controller I did at the same time

plasma panel.jpg

100x better. still a tight fit in there though even switching to 500x500 huh?

[Rodw]

100x better. still a tight fit in there though even switching to 500x500 huh?

Yes, just made it! Anything else will have to go on the door!
You'll see I plasma cut and folded up a mounting bracket for the toroid to stand it on its edge to make a bit more room.

Anyway, look past the mess and at the ethercat gear...

[N2 Welding]

Ethercat gear uses one or more NIC’s and cat 5 cables?

[adbuch]

LinuxCNC is free? That’d just be one more cog in the wheel I’d have to learn. I really don’t want to get overwhelmed with trying to learn too much all at the same time then get frustrated and give up after dumping a lot of time and money into this. This is my main reason for wanting to stick with “ as previously mentioned “ windows based software I.e. Microsoft Windows. So looking for a controller board and software based on that platform.

If you want to keep it really simple I would suggest reaching out to Tom (acourtjester) to find out more information about his previous builds. He has built I think 10 DIY cutting tables of various sizes, and using various controllers, etc. You can read about his latest build here.

https://plasmaspider.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=34614

David

[Rodw]

Ethercat gear uses one or more NIC’s and cat 5 cables?

Yes, one NIC on the PC which acts as the master and controls the slaves. It is possible to have backup masters as well but not on a CNC machine.
Ethercat is widely used in industry and cnc is a small market. Its limited to 65536 devices from memory!

[acourtjester]

David I have contacted N2 with PMs and may have pulled him from the Welding Web to here. He is trying like us all to do the research before he gets involved to deeply. There is so much info and some many combinations it like standing on the 50 yard line and all the fans yelling at once which play to run. I have had the fun of building a few tables and playing with what I find along the way. I have been lucky in that selling each table I have the money to play with different electronics and software and advance in knowledge. The problem with research is sometimes the shinny object that may not be the best for you sticks in your mind. N2 I an not saying your are wrong, as in the end it is your money and will be your table in your shop.
I am no where near an expert but can give my experience with different things and enjoy sharing, as others here.
H2 as to the Price THC I have bought 2 and they worked great (still using one) I think it was bought by another to remove it form the market. That was the reason I went with LinuxCNC and Mesa electronics for my last table. I did struggle with the software (mental block on my part) but with help from some here and the web I have a very functional new table with a very fair price. Having a internal THC for $70 adds to the attraction.

[N2 Welding]

If this is the Mesa electronics you are talking about then yeah that scares me. http://www.mesanet.com/

I already have trouble understanding what is what on that sight. Then the web page looks out of date and very generic. It does not encourage thoughts of confidence they will be around for the long haul. I’m not saying they are not good or won’t be around but this is just my gut feeling.

I try to avoid spending my money to be a beta tester and prefer tried and true designs with enough user base to help support the product.

[Rodw]

If this is the Mesa electronics you are talking about then yeah that scares me. http://www.mesanet.com/

I already have trouble understanding what is what on that sight. Then the web page looks out of date and very generic. It does not encourage thoughts of confidence they will be around for the long haul. I’m not saying they are not good or won’t be around but this is just my gut feeling.

I try to avoid spending my money to be a beta tester and prefer tried and true designs with enough user base to help support the product.

You have a very closed mind so its probably best you stick with Windows software. Just be aware external THC's cannot compete with ones embedded n the motion controller which is how linuxcnc works. That is because the motion controller knows everything going on and extenral THC's fly blind.

Mesa is a long standing company specialising in motion hardware, particularly for linuxcnc. The owner is a very active member of the linuxcnc forum and tirelessly offers support to users and is on hand to answer any questions about his hardware. Thousands of machines use Mesa hardware. Hundreds of rtrofitters breathe new life into old iron machines with mesa and linuxcnc. Tormach uses linuxcnc and mesa cards and CommandCNC also uses mesa hardware with their linuxcnc system.

There is nothing Beta about it.

For Plasma you need a 7i96s and a THCAD-2 as I said before. Building a plasma config using this hardware is supported by pncconf, the mesa configuration tool bundled with linuxcnc.

Anyway enough on this thread, Continue the conversion in a seperate thread on the Linuxcnc section of the forum if you wish.

[N2 Welding]

Thank you Rod.

I did see this linuxcnc thread and can confirm my thoughts and fears with using a Linux based pc.

viewtopic.php?f=203&t=35008

[adbuch]

David I have contacted N2 with PMs and may have pulled him from the Welding Web to here. He is trying like us all to do the research before he gets involved to deeply. There is so much info and some many combinations it like standing on the 50 yard line and all the fans yelling at once which play to run.

Tom - I agree. But sometimes you just gotta call a play and go with it.
David

[SegoMan DeSigns]

Here is my main control box (KISS Engineering / Keep It Simple Steve)

No:
Drivers
Bobs
Encoders

They are integrated into the motor itself , the step & direction signal wiring (4 pair LAN cable goes directly to the controller).

What you are looking at:

Top - all high voltage wiring (240 / 3 ph) and contactors / relays for pump, drain solenoid ect. The only 120V signal that goes into my control center is for the monitor the rest is 12VDC
Left Middle - ClearPath 72V DC transformer for servos
Left Bottom - 12V relays to to isolate any potential noise from controller
Bottom Middle - patch bay to umbilical cord to control head.
Bottom Right - Converted power supply from computer / used to power LEDS as it is to sensitive to load fluctuations. It will trip itself before you can blow a 3 amp fuse and has to be powered down to reset itself (Fun Project /Good learning experience) ..

IMG_20200219_155229251.jpg

ClearPath SDSK servos and 72V power supply:

IMG_20191022_153025056.jpg

(NON SYNC) Consumables drawer next to main power box:

IMG_20210914_111115236.jpg

Brain Fodder Bonus Section:

I highly recommend you make provisions on your gantry for an air scribe and or one of Tom's nifty felt tip pen holders, as the ability to mark break lines, part numbers or C.L. X's for drill holes is a real time saver.

Always go at least 2-3 in oversize on table dimensions, 4'-3" x 8'-3" Do you have room in the shop for a 5'-3" x 10'-3"? The price difference will be very little difference.

8' is pushing the limit for lead screws. So it's rack and pinion, rotating lead screw nuts or like I did with chain drive on my 6'2" x 12'-2", when properly engineered chains have very little if any slack. I would not hesitate to use my system on a 20' + long run.

I allowed room to park my gantry off the water table as loading heavy metal does not always go as planned ..

Extruded aluminum profile like 80 / 20 is great to work with but can add up quickly, the 4" x 6" profile on my gantry was going to cost $850 + due to the additional length /weight charges.. I bought a 20' section of 4" x 6" x 0.125 wall for $125 and drilled my own holes.. The kicker to the equation is it weighs the same / ft as the AL profile..

Confused yet??

[acourtjester]

As Segoman points out with a DIY you choose how and why you have things the way you want. On the tables I build I have a mobile controller and table. I can roll them around for storage or outside for keeping smoke/smells out of my shop. You can select the size that fits your shop where most commercial tables are a standard size. Like Segoman I like chain drive it makes using one motor/driver for a wider axis. We may have a different design but the functionality is fine in the operation. And you can personalize it like Segoman did to show off your creativity and add additional options.

[Teknic_Servo]

Here is one of many vids on the ClearPath Servos

Those look nice. I can see potential for wiring issues. The connectors face towards the output shaft with short distance between the two and I see potential for cable binding because of the short cleanse issue. I guess it could be mitigated depending on how the motors are clocked. With these motors, it seems as though more longer cables would be required or do they use the same amount of wires as a closed loop stepper motor?

It's really not an issue as you can clock it in the best direction for your setup. The motor may or may not be mounted to a gear box or adapter like on the slider I gave you a link to. The hook up wires are flexible, I can take a picture of mine if you like. ClearPath has an ethernet servo as well, I would like to see some photo's of Rodw's system. With all of this information thrown your way you have to decide what works for the budget you have allotted for the project. Start compiling information for your owners manual now and always allow room for upgrading down the road.

Hi SegoMan - Thanks for sharing your experience. It's always nice to hear about users' success and to see them recommend ClearPath to others. I'm an Applications Engineer with Teknic (we manufacture the ClearPath integrated servos) and I wanted to add some clarification for anyone considering ClearPath for their builds. We actually don't have a ClearPath servo with a built-in Ethernet interface (yet!). What you may have seen is an EtherNet/IP controller product that controls ClearPath-SD servos, but this controller is not geared for the CNC market as it was designed primarily for point-to-point applications, not CNC contouring motion.

To elaborate a bit more on N2 Welding's question about cabling, ClearPath has the servo drive integrated onto the back of the motor. This would replace both the stepper motor and the stepper drive. For the NEMA 23 and 34 sizes, you would wire DC power and control signals (Step, Direction, Enable, feedback) directly to the ClearPath, hence the two different connectors. Oftentimes this saves on cabling compared to traditional closed loop steppers because the encoder signals are kept internal to ClearPath, i.e. no need for expensive shielded motor cables (even on plasma cutters).

I hope this helps! If you have additional questions you can always call us (585-784-7454) or submit a contact request through our website (https://teknic.com/contact/).
Best of luck with the build!

Regards,
Matt C. - Teknic Servo Systems Engineer

[N2 Welding]

At both Segoman and Tom, I really do like chain / sprocket drive. How do you get away with mounting the sprocket shaft only on one side of thesprocket so you don’t have side load causing backlash or am I overthinking it as usual? Also does the sprocket shaft have to be special hardened steel to prevent flexing and bending?

As Segoman points out with a DIY you choose how and why you have things the way you want. On the tables I build I have a mobile controller and table. I can roll them around for storage or outside for keeping smoke/smells out of my shop. You can select the size that fits your shop where most commercial tables are a standard size. Like Segoman I like chain drive it makes using one motor/driver for a wider axis. We may have a different design but the functionality is fine in the operation. And you can personalize it like Segoman did to show off your creativity and add additional options.

[SegoMan DeSigns]

My heavy gantry dictated a different setup than Tom's

I used 3/4" C R round for the shaft that controls both sides of X supported by 6 bearings:

IMG_2260.JPG

IMG_2263.JPG

IMG_2276.JPG

This is the idler /tensioner:

IMG_2261.JPG

IMG_2253.JPG

A constant load on the 40 pitch roller chain of approx 300 Lbs / side is done with urethane bushings

IMG_20220407_152502832.jpg

[acourtjester]

In my design there is a 3/4" shaft the runs through the middle of the axis rail (I call it the Y rail others its the X). There is a chain drive on both sides, the shaft is not hardened it is not needed. I grind a small notch in the shaft where ever a setscrew is contacting the shaft to insure no slippage in the total drive assembly. I also have a shelf that the chain sits on so no flopping of the chain. There are adjustment points at each end of the chains to square up the table travel, I can move each side of the chain to adjust the axis position.
You are not over thinking your are doing research, better to have the answers before construction so there are no slow downs or corrections.

DSCN2120.JPG

chain attachment (1).JPG

chain attachment (4).JPG