The new SmartSYNC plasma cutting system

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Paid for with my very own money lest anyone be confused.

[tinspark]

I have been reading all of this for several weeks now and have kept quiet but and have enjoyed the dialogue.
In the back of my mind from the get-go I have thought that this may be an attempt to solve the knock-off Chinese consumables problem that has flooded the market over the years. I am pretty sure that these cartridges would be harder if not impossible to pirate.
I do agree with the comments about crashing and trashing new cartridges and what the outcome of that would be if/when that happens. An inoperable cartridge? All legitimate concerns.

[cstroke]

I was not on board at first with these, thought was why are they messing with stuff that just works.
Thoughts pop in my head from time to time, I wonder how much life is in these consumables, they look decent but no idea how many pierces on them.
I'm sure I throw consumables away that still have life in them and also make bad cuts with consumables that should have been thrown away.
I can see the value in this new system.
So I am still on the fence LOL....

[cutnweld]

I do get a charge out of the sync saving money. I recently cut out a 4x8 welding fixture table. I used an old 5/16" sheet i had laying around,kind of rusty. I put in a new set of consumables and cut out entire top and misc bracing, 1269 pierces. I changed tip after that sheet because i figured it didn't owe me anything anymore. We have always been told that piercing is hardest on tips. Hypermax online price for a tip and electrode is $15.09. 45 amp cartridge is $53. 53 divided by 15.09= 3.5. So that is the scale. 3.5 x more expensive. so if it is going to actually save money it should cut at least 4x as long, in other words it should effortlessly do over 5000 pierces on rusty steel on one cartridge at least by my figures. I keep track of total table pierces, to date i have well over 40000 on 1 swirl ring, and im not sure i have ever changed a retaining cap. So i will wait to see, if folks do four times as much cutting with one unit, then I will bite the hook. If not....

[beefy]

It does raise alarm bells in my head when it's said that this system has been in development for what, a decade ??? yet there is no cost comparison of cartridge life vs changing out individual consumables in the Duramax torch. Hypertherm says they are waiting for market feedback regarding that............ Hold on, I always thought they tested to the nth degree in their laboratories and wouldn't need to find this out from users. Just doesn't add up for me.

Then it's marketed for it's "convenience", reduced inventory, blah blah. So far all I can see is a way of diverting attention away from the likelihood that this system is several times more expensive to run.

I'm happy to be proven wrong but I cannot see how this cartridge system could possibly work out cheaper or at best even match the Duramax system.
Until I'm proven wrong, printer cartridge revenue.

[tinspark]

Until I'm proven wrong, printer cartridge revenue.

Don't get me started with printer cartridge revenue!!
I bought a pack of HP printer cartridges a few years ago and only needed a yellow initially. 6 months go by, and I needed the black from the "variety pack" and plopped it in and got an error message which said, " print cartridge past expiration date"!!
I was so p#$4ed off, I chucked the printer in the closet and bought an Epson which I can add my own ink to from a bottle and have not looked back. I will never go back!! I hope HT doesn't turn into HP

[HypHyDef]

Ok, I am confused, I think this topic is getting off track.

Since when was just one guy in a garage not concerned about overhead Randy? Maybe you have never been 1 guy in a garage trying to earn a living, but those guys are extremely cost conscious. That's the entire premise of this topic, the fact that this SYNC system is supposed to save money.

So to be clear, Hypertherm doesn't have cost comparison analysis available to the public on consumables that were designed to save money over the previous consumables?

Hey Weldguy, I'm sorry my comment came across that way. I infact run a one person garage business myself (in woodworking though) and of course overhead plays a part. I didn't explain my comment very well and i'm sorry for that. Our SYNC system is designed to help with downtime, less errors, using the cartridge reader to know exactly how much you have left on a that cartridge so you don't start a job and have to change out consumables. More time cutting, less time down. Your time is worth a lot of money, and the more time you spend working on things that are not earning you money ends up costing you money. In my personal business, I attempt to arrange my project in the most efficient way possible. I don't charge my customers for the time i'm doing maintenance on my tools, Changing out sand paper, or blades on my jointer, table saw ect. when i'm cutting and I see burn marks or rough edges I have to stop what i'm doing and replace those things costing me time and money. If my saw could tell me I can make 10 more cuts at optimal performance I can decide to either use that blad or change it before I start my project. At the end of the day, my blades just as your consumables are not the largest price factor in your business equation. Yes they all add up and play a roll, but using a system that can help you manage those parts more efficiently is what we're trying to do. To answer your question about the cost comparison, I do not have anything to give you on that. everyone's usuage will be different, everyone's setups will be different. The best way for us to get a clear understanding will be to hear from the people who have decided to purchase and use the systems. If I had something I could get you, I would.

[HypHyDef]

[I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the answer you were looking for, I would think you are way better off selling your consumables rather than trying to give back to us for a credit, and then paying shipping to send to us.

I think this is a very poor attitude from Hypertherm.
What I translate your comment to is " We have our money give us more because what we sold you before is wothless to us"

34by151, I'm sorry my comment sounded that way to you. What I meant to say was I'm sorry that the answer you receieved from your Hypertherm rep was rude or unprofessional. You didn't quote him/her but if your message was truly ( are you kidding me ) that is not something that should have been said. The second part of my comment was truly about your best interest, I could be wrong but I believe having you send in your unused consumables to NH from Austrailia would most likely not be in your financial favor. Your Duramax consumables are not worthless and that is exactly why you would be better off selling them rather than sending them in to us.

[HypHyDef]

I have been reading all of this for several weeks now and have kept quiet but and have enjoyed the dialogue.
In the back of my mind from the get-go I have thought that this may be an attempt to solve the knock-off Chinese consumables problem that has flooded the market over the years. I am pretty sure that these cartridges would be harder if not impossible to pirate.
I do agree with the comments about crashing and trashing new cartridges and what the outcome of that would be if/when that happens. An inoperable cartridge? All legitimate concerns.

counterfit consumables are always a problem, and i'm sure these will get copied as well at some point. As a company we do spend a lot of time and moeny tracking and sometimes prosecuting counterfitters. I don't disagree with you that if a cartridge impacts and crashes that could potentially be expensive. The cartridge does not do anything to prevent that from happening. How often does that happen do you think? I'm asking seriously, I have no idea if that is a common thing to happen, what causes it? is it setup error? does it happen even if things are setup correctly? When I talk to our techical support team about it they seem to give the idea that it's not very frequent. To be clear, i'm not saying that makes it okay. Obviously any crash on a part that can cost $50 is not a good thing.

[HypHyDef]

I was not on board at first with these, thought was why are they messing with stuff that just works.
Thoughts pop in my head from time to time, I wonder how much life is in these consumables, they look decent but no idea how many pierces on them.
I'm sure I throw consumables away that still have life in them and also make bad cuts with consumables that should have been thrown away.
I can see the value in this new system.
So I am still on the fence LOL....

cstroke, This is exactly the type of thing the SYNC system and cartrige is trying to resolve for everyone. The goal is to make the best cuts you can on the projects you are working on. If you could use a reader and know you have enough life in the cartridge to complete your cuts with optimal performance than you can feel secure that you will have less rework or time down to change out the consumables. If you do not have enough life left then you put that back on the shelf and keep it until you have another project where it will work perfectly.

[rdj357]

I'm going to film my personal experience with these from start (screwing on the adapter and setting up height control) to making comparison cuts. I will cut an artistic design with Duramax Fine Cut then switch to SYNC and cut the same design - all on film. I'll do the same with some mock production parts with the 45, 65, and 85 mechanized consumables and then cartridges. As for long term numbers - I'll be keeping track on my manual SYNC cartridge data system (aka legal pad) and it will take more time to post those reviews but I certainly will.

I hope to start filming the setup and first cuts this week and hopefully will have a video edited and posted with that by the end of this week or early next.

[djreiswig]

To answer your question about the cost comparison, I do not have anything to give you on that. everyone's usuage will be different, everyone's setups will be different.

How does the SYNC know how much usage is left in the cartridge? Can it actually detect the condition of the parts, or is it just going by cut time and pierce count? If it is the latter, then it should be simple to compare costs. I would think Hypertherm would have some historical data on the Duramax consumables. What is the algorithm behind determining when a cartridge is used up?

[tinspark]

I have been reading all of this for several weeks now and have kept quiet but and have enjoyed the dialogue.
In the back of my mind from the get-go I have thought that this may be an attempt to solve the knock-off Chinese consumables problem that has flooded the market over the years. I am pretty sure that these cartridges would be harder if not impossible to pirate.
I do agree with the comments about crashing and trashing new cartridges and what the outcome of that would be if/when that happens. An inoperable cartridge? All legitimate concerns.

counterfit consumables are always a problem, and i'm sure these will get copied as well at some point. As a company we do spend a lot of time and moeny tracking and sometimes prosecuting counterfitters. I don't disagree with you that if a cartridge impacts and crashes that could potentially be expensive. The cartridge does not do anything to prevent that from happening. How often does that happen do you think? I'm asking seriously, I have no idea if that is a common thing to happen, what causes it? is it setup error? does it happen even if things are setup correctly? When I talk to our techical support team about it they seem to give the idea that it's not very frequent. To be clear, i'm not saying that makes it okay. Obviously any crash on a part that can cost $50 is not a good thing.

Not to be disrespectful, but seriously?

[HypHyDef]

I have been reading all of this for several weeks now and have kept quiet but and have enjoyed the dialogue.
In the back of my mind from the get-go I have thought that this may be an attempt to solve the knock-off Chinese consumables problem that has flooded the market over the years. I am pretty sure that these cartridges would be harder if not impossible to pirate.
I do agree with the comments about crashing and trashing new cartridges and what the outcome of that would be if/when that happens. An inoperable cartridge? All legitimate concerns.

counterfit consumables are always a problem, and i'm sure these will get copied as well at some point. As a company we do spend a lot of time and moeny tracking and sometimes prosecuting counterfitters. I don't disagree with you that if a cartridge impacts and crashes that could potentially be expensive. The cartridge does not do anything to prevent that from happening. How often does that happen do you think? I'm asking seriously, I have no idea if that is a common thing to happen, what causes it? is it setup error? does it happen even if things are setup correctly? When I talk to our techical support team about it they seem to give the idea that it's not very frequent. To be clear, i'm not saying that makes it okay. Obviously any crash on a part that can cost $50 is not a good thing.

Not to be disrespectful, but seriously?

I'm guessing my reply wasn't clear again. All concerns that have been discussed in this thread are legitiment concerns. In no way have I tried to ignore or push aside anyone's concerns. All I can do is try and tell you the back story of the product and ask that for those who are interested in trying out the SYNC do so and those who are not interested, you don't need to. You can continue to buy the Duramax torches and consumables for your exisiting systems.

[weldguy]

Ok, I am confused, I think this topic is getting off track.

Since when was just one guy in a garage not concerned about overhead Randy? Maybe you have never been 1 guy in a garage trying to earn a living, but those guys are extremely cost conscious. That's the entire premise of this topic, the fact that this SYNC system is supposed to save money.

So to be clear, Hypertherm doesn't have cost comparison analysis available to the public on consumables that were designed to save money over the previous consumables?

Hey Weldguy, I'm sorry my comment came across that way. I infact run a one person garage business myself (in woodworking though) and of course overhead plays a part. I didn't explain my comment very well and i'm sorry for that. Our SYNC system is designed to help with downtime, less errors, using the cartridge reader to know exactly how much you have left on a that cartridge so you don't start a job and have to change out consumables. More time cutting, less time down. Your time is worth a lot of money, and the more time you spend working on things that are not earning you money ends up costing you money. In my personal business, I attempt to arrange my project in the most efficient way possible. I don't charge my customers for the time i'm doing maintenance on my tools, Changing out sand paper, or blades on my jointer, table saw ect. when i'm cutting and I see burn marks or rough edges I have to stop what i'm doing and replace those things costing me time and money. If my saw could tell me I can make 10 more cuts at optimal performance I can decide to either use that blad or change it before I start my project. At the end of the day, my blades just as your consumables are not the largest price factor in your business equation. Yes they all add up and play a roll, but using a system that can help you manage those parts more efficiently is what we're trying to do. To answer your question about the cost comparison, I do not have anything to give you on that. everyone's usuage will be different, everyone's setups will be different. The best way for us to get a clear understanding will be to hear from the people who have decided to purchase and use the systems. If I had something I could get you, I would.

Hey Randy, thanks for the reply. So if no cost comparison has been done to compare Duramax and SYNC consumable life then the claims that it will save the end user money must be solely based on claimed reduced downtime. That's disappointing as naturally one would assume that the cost savings is coming from extended consumable life, not reduced downtime. Now we all know that assuming is never a good thing but that seems like tricky advertising. Really it only takes 20 seconds to change consumables, even at $500 an hour that change only cost .14 cents in labour. Looking forward to RDJ's videos.

[SegoMan DeSigns]

This has got to be the worst roll out of a new product line that Hypertherm has ever done, there is countless videos on their site and Y/T on how they test, use and abuse their previous products prior to releasing it to the public.

We have not seen that for that for the SYNC system instead we are told is how “easy” it will be to use with no actual in house data to back up their claims or any cost comparisons. We were told these “improvements” were a result of input from all types of users even though registered users of their products received no surveys.

Any opposition to these claims or request for real time data to back them up are met with well worded / properly punctuated responses that is gas lighting at best. The only data provided was of a “Kewl” car cut up with a 65 amp consumable (this by their own cut charts would require a cutting speed of 500 ipm+) that is one heck a tune on that arm to handle all of those curves at that speed.

Hypertherm you are our business partner as we chose your systems to integrate into our livelihoods. Not only do we buy your products but we sell them via training and or product recognition with the service’s we offer. We expect more from you, you either provide it or we well find another company that does.

Randy you stated that you own a wood shop, have you ever ran a plasma torch? Please post up some metal projects that you have done like the rest of us here do. Jim Colt showed us his shop and shared his projects. He is retired now and unfortunately I don’t see those shoes being filled any time soon.

Please prove me wrong and no I’m not trying to pick a fight with you .

Steve

[beefy]

Ok, I am confused, I think this topic is getting off track.

Since when was just one guy in a garage not concerned about overhead Randy? Maybe you have never been 1 guy in a garage trying to earn a living, but those guys are extremely cost conscious. That's the entire premise of this topic, the fact that this SYNC system is supposed to save money.

So to be clear, Hypertherm doesn't have cost comparison analysis available to the public on consumables that were designed to save money over the previous consumables?

Hey Weldguy, I'm sorry my comment came across that way. I infact run a one person garage business myself (in woodworking though) and of course overhead plays a part. I didn't explain my comment very well and i'm sorry for that. Our SYNC system is designed to help with downtime, less errors, using the cartridge reader to know exactly how much you have left on a that cartridge so you don't start a job and have to change out consumables. More time cutting, less time down. Your time is worth a lot of money, and the more time you spend working on things that are not earning you money ends up costing you money. In my personal business, I attempt to arrange my project in the most efficient way possible. I don't charge my customers for the time i'm doing maintenance on my tools, Changing out sand paper, or blades on my jointer, table saw ect. when i'm cutting and I see burn marks or rough edges I have to stop what i'm doing and replace those things costing me time and money. If my saw could tell me I can make 10 more cuts at optimal performance I can decide to either use that blad or change it before I start my project. At the end of the day, my blades just as your consumables are not the largest price factor in your business equation. Yes they all add up and play a roll, but using a system that can help you manage those parts more efficiently is what we're trying to do. To answer your question about the cost comparison, I do not have anything to give you on that. everyone's usuage will be different, everyone's setups will be different. The best way for us to get a clear understanding will be to hear from the people who have decided to purchase and use the systems. If I had something I could get you, I would.

If Hypertherm really cared about what is good for the customer, they would not be forcing (no other new purchase option) the Sync system down their customers throats.
The would not be dictating what is good for the customer. Instead they would supply a system where the user can use either a Sync torch or a Duramax torch on the power supply, and let the customer decide which way they want to go. I know you said you asked existing customers what issues they had before coming up with the Sync system. Hmmm, most user here don't seem to be thinking the same way.
It takes a few seconds to change a nozzle or an electrode, so I save no money there.
My system can log pierces and cut time so I don't need a Sync system.
Myself, and I'm sure a great many other users of both hand and CNC cutters, are not so incapable that they can't read the consumables page in the manual to ensure they don't install the wrong consumable. So for those people, probably no benefit there.
The sync system doesn't know when a nozzle is contaminated, etc. It will just keep on cutting and thinking everything is whoopee doo.
Hypertherm makes it sound like the customer is going to save massive amounts of time/money simply by not having to change a nozzle, etc.

As for testing, Hypertherm could have easily done some base tests with different cartridge sizes, metal thicknesses, number of cuts, etc and put those out as a starting point. That at least gives the customer something to base their purchase decision on. Instead the customer much first buy the Sync system then give feedback to Hypertherm. The lack of any such comparison tests tells me tells me there's not much to offer in that area.
And can the customer return their unit if they decide it's costing them heaps more for no real benefit ???

As a long term loyal customer of Hypertherm, my suggestion is to redesign the system to allow the Duramax torch to also be used. That will not require 2 production lines.

[34by151]

[I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the answer you were looking for, I would think you are way better off selling your consumables rather than trying to give back to us for a credit, and then paying shipping to send to us.

I think this is a very poor attitude from Hypertherm.
What I translate your comment to is " We have our money give us more because what we sold you before is wothless to us"

34by151, I'm sorry my comment sounded that way to you. What I meant to say was I'm sorry that the answer you receieved from your Hypertherm rep was rude or unprofessional. You didn't quote him/her but if your message was truly ( are you kidding me ) that is not something that should have been said. The second part of my comment was truly about your best interest, I could be wrong but I believe having you send in your unused consumables to NH from Austrailia would most likely not be in your financial favor. Your Duramax consumables are not worthless and that is exactly why you would be better off selling them rather than sending them in to us.

The poor attitude I was refering to was your comment not my Reps
Again if Hypertherm were serious on getting there customers to change over they would trade in the unused and boxed consumables for cartriges.
If as you say you will continue to sell them then there sould be no issue for you (hypertherm)
I would think you would know that many of your comercial customers would have a large stock of consuables on hand.
Sugesting we seel them cheep and not assist the transistion to the new system is very poor on hypertherms part.
The fact im in Australia makes no difference, if hyperthem traded in the old for new that program would flow to Australia

As stated before Ive canceled my Sync machine order. Im now looking at Thermal Dynamics and to that end my rep is sending a machine for me to test.

Again if hyerthem wont trade the consumables in and wont offer a way to use them im stuck.
Im not in the business of buying stock tosell at a loss
Your asking me to purchase a sync machine and more consumables so I will look for another brand and get there consumables

[HypHyDef]

Contacted my hypertherm agent and asked if they would take back my standard consumable (unused & still boxed) and swap them for cartriges of the same value.

Was happy to wear a restocking fee

Short answer are you kidding?
Granted im Australia but Hyperthem could offer a swap deal

That would go a long way with assisting in a changeover

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get the answer you were looking for, I would think you are way better off selling your consumables rather than trying to give back to us for a credit, and then paying shipping to send to us.

34by151, I must have misunderstood your comment above. I read your post as you saying you got the "are you kidding me" answer from your Hypertherm rep. My mistake. You were the one that brought up being in Australia as an obstacle first, I was only trying to say that you would be better of financially to sell them locally. Can you help me understand your situation a little more? you placed an order for one of the new SYNC power supplies, yet you still have the Duramax consumables is that right? did you sell your previous Powermax system that your Duramax consumables were for? did you sell your system before knowing for certain that your Duramax torch wouldn't fit on the new SYNC? I'm sorry if you have already explained this and I missed it, and maybe you feel you don't need to explain which of course you don't. I'm just trying to get the full picture. I apologize for any comment that I made that upset you, and I hope that if you do go with the Thermal Dynamics that it works absolutely perfect for you truly. We are of course sorry to see you go, if it was our lack of information that caused you to sell your PMX system in the first place by mistake that is on us and we need to do better.

[34by151]

Duplicate post ignore

[34by151]

Hyphydef,

I have a 45xp on my 2515 table.
I have ordered a new larger table (3mx2m) I also need a larger plasma source so I ordered and 85
As you cant get the 85 anymore I was informed it would be a Sync 85

My old table is being sold with the 45xp once my new table is up and running

I am not interedsted in selling my stock of consumables at a loss
As we all know no solution to use a duramax torch on the sync which would enable me to use my consumables.
The is no converter to use old consumables on the sync torch.

The only conveter is to use sync cartriges on a duramax torch (waste of time imho)

Ill repeat my comment as a former loyal customer
If hypertherm are forcing us only into a sync machine and therefor forcing us to use sync cartriges they should trade in the old consumables.

If I have to buy everything again and given this attude at hypertherm I will look at thermal dynamics

Im sure im not the ony customer going though this.
No shop wants this from there partner/supplier
No shop want to have mutiple systems on the shop floor.
Im also not convinced on the lower cost claims when there is no proof.
Im sure most customers would like to stay with the current consumables till it can be shown the new ones are more cost effective.

Tho obvious answers are any one of these
1. Offer an adapter for the old consumables on the sync torch
2. Offer a duramax torch for the sync machine
3. Offer to trade in new consumables ( still in unopened boxes)

I would not have cancled my machine order if one of the first two options was offered.

[HypHyDef]

Thanks for the reply and the explanation. As one guy sitting here in the marketing dept I can admit, I wish any of those things you mentioned had happened. While I do see the benefits of the system, I can absolutely understand your frustration with the situation. I think any company large or small trys to make the best decisions they can at the time and we'll see if they were the right ones down the road. regardless of all the back and forth we have here on this forum I personally only wish you and everyone who uses our systems all the best. If that turns out to be another manufacturer then that is our loss. I'm not an engineer, I'm not in tech support, my job is to be here to try my best to get all your questions answered if possible and to bring those concerns to the folks above me in the company when things don't make sense. Perfect example of that is the issue with the service manual not being onliine for you guys to see. I brought that up and we corrected the mistake so you can have access. Since we only sell through authorized distributors have you asked the distributor where you bought the consumables to refund you? Not the Hypertherm rep who works directly for us but the store where you bought them?

[34by151]

Hyphydef, simple questions, please give us a simple answer

Have you reffered any or all of the 3 options to the decision makers in hypertherm Yes or No?
If you have what was the resopnce?
If you havent why not?

[HypHyDef]

To answer your question about the cost comparison, I do not have anything to give you on that. everyone's usuage will be different, everyone's setups will be different.

How does the SYNC know how much usage is left in the cartridge? Can it actually detect the condition of the parts, or is it just going by cut time and pierce count? If it is the latter, then it should be simple to compare costs. I would think Hypertherm would have some historical data on the Duramax consumables. What is the algorithm behind determining when a cartridge is used up?

Hi djreiswig, I'm sorry for the delay. I've been talking with our egineers about your question. What I was told is the cartridge has what we call an end of life feature which can detect when the hafnium is basically all used up and the nozzle is close to the point where it will blow and cause damage to the torch. So once the cartridge detects that limit, that is when the feature turns off the torch. I hope that helps answer your questions. Let me know if you need more information.

[HypHyDef]

Hyphydef, simple questions, please give us a simple answer

Have you reffered any or all of the 3 options to the decision makers in hypertherm Yes or No?
If you have what was the resopnce?
If you havent why not?

Hey 34by151, I have brought all of this groups comments to our team and I hope that you will take part in what i'm about to post on the forum. Stay tuned.