Patina
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- 2.5 Star Member
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Patina
Plasma Dudes,
I'm doing an event for our local Humane Society in the spring, so I started to make produce now and store it. I'm appling a patina to the pieces, neutralizing and applying 4 coats of sealer, let dry for a couple of days and sealed in gallon zip lock bags, boxed 50 per box and store in my shop. Shop temp is around 55 degrees. My problem is when I was looking for a particular item ( walking in sale ) I noticed the patina did not look the same and appeared to be rusting?although no rust residue was no my fingers. Could someone explain what is happening or what I am doing wrong?
Thank you very much for your help,
Tim Red Robin Creatives
I'm doing an event for our local Humane Society in the spring, so I started to make produce now and store it. I'm appling a patina to the pieces, neutralizing and applying 4 coats of sealer, let dry for a couple of days and sealed in gallon zip lock bags, boxed 50 per box and store in my shop. Shop temp is around 55 degrees. My problem is when I was looking for a particular item ( walking in sale ) I noticed the patina did not look the same and appeared to be rusting?although no rust residue was no my fingers. Could someone explain what is happening or what I am doing wrong?
Thank you very much for your help,
Tim Red Robin Creatives
- parrotlady
- 3 Star Member
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- Location: Vancouver Island, BC. Canada
Re: Patina
Are you positive that it was COMPLETELY dry before sealing it? If there is the tiniest bit of moisture trapped under the clearcoat, it will rust underneath, so you may not feel the rust to touch it. Happened to me many times before I learned the hard way. It will continue if thats the case, so you are best to get out the grinder and or/stripper and start again. Other than that, I dont know what it could be.
Good luck
april
Good luck
april
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Re: Patina
April,
Thanks for the reply. I am pretty sure all the moisture was removed, I used a heat gun set at 800 degrees to make sure it was dry. I blow most of the water off with the shop vac, remove the rest with the heat gun. When on visible water remains I turn down the heat gun to 250 degrees for a couple of minutes while still blowing on it , then let it cool down, then seal it quickly. I'm going to watch it though, hope I don't have to sand down like you said, they never are the same after that.
Thanks for the reply April,
Tim
Thanks for the reply. I am pretty sure all the moisture was removed, I used a heat gun set at 800 degrees to make sure it was dry. I blow most of the water off with the shop vac, remove the rest with the heat gun. When on visible water remains I turn down the heat gun to 250 degrees for a couple of minutes while still blowing on it , then let it cool down, then seal it quickly. I'm going to watch it though, hope I don't have to sand down like you said, they never are the same after that.
Thanks for the reply April,
Tim
- AnotherDano
- 4 Star Member
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- Location: Laramie, Wyoming
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Re: Patina
Some parts were being powder coated and had just come out of a wash & rinse to remove the remaining stripper. There were water-trapping areas that were holding water and the blowgun just blew it from one area to another.
I sprayed it down with denatured alcohol which mixed with the water and it all blew out nicely, drying as it went. Wrote that little trick down before I forgot it.
I sprayed it down with denatured alcohol which mixed with the water and it all blew out nicely, drying as it went. Wrote that little trick down before I forgot it.
Dano Roberts
droberts@ironpequod.com
PlasmaCam DHC-2 v3.11
Hypertherm PowerMax-30
Serving Laramie, Wy since Thursday
droberts@ironpequod.com
PlasmaCam DHC-2 v3.11
Hypertherm PowerMax-30
Serving Laramie, Wy since Thursday
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- 3.5 Star Elite Contributing Member
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- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:22 pm
- Location: Tenino,WA
Re: Patina
Dano at our age you have to write things down or they are gone forever.
plain ol Bill
Hypertherm 1250
Duramax machine torch
Corel Draw X6
Sheetcam
Mach3
5 x 10 self built table
Lots of ineptitude
Hypertherm 1250
Duramax machine torch
Corel Draw X6
Sheetcam
Mach3
5 x 10 self built table
Lots of ineptitude
- steelfx
- 4 Star Elite Contributing Member
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Re: Patina
Airflow Kid:
What kind of "patina" product were you using? Acid-Based Etch or Pigmented Stain? Or, maybe something else?
I'm about 99.99% sure what your problem was, but would need to know the patina type to be sure. Then, I'll post
the remedy so it won't happen again.
thanks!
Bill Worden
What kind of "patina" product were you using? Acid-Based Etch or Pigmented Stain? Or, maybe something else?
I'm about 99.99% sure what your problem was, but would need to know the patina type to be sure. Then, I'll post
the remedy so it won't happen again.
thanks!
Bill Worden
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Re: Patina
Bill,
Thanks for your help. The auburn rust patina is a product from Kings that I was trying out before a issue a bulk purchase.Problem with them is that there is no tech support. That is why I was so glad to see you introduce your products, You along with others such as Jason and Gary offer a great product but more importantly offer outstanding customer service, so to make a long story short it is a acid based etch patina. Trying to get ready for show at Humane Society in the spring, Very disappointed when I seen what was happening. Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated!
Bill & Dano,
I too have used denatured alcohol, But only for cleaning purposes I will keep print off your suggestion and put in my paper brain. Dano research shows than after only 21 days we start to forget things we just learned 21 days prior, pretty amazing. Thank GOD FOR PRINTERS!
Thanks for all your help gentleman, Tim Red Robin Creatives
Thanks for your help. The auburn rust patina is a product from Kings that I was trying out before a issue a bulk purchase.Problem with them is that there is no tech support. That is why I was so glad to see you introduce your products, You along with others such as Jason and Gary offer a great product but more importantly offer outstanding customer service, so to make a long story short it is a acid based etch patina. Trying to get ready for show at Humane Society in the spring, Very disappointed when I seen what was happening. Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated!
Bill & Dano,
I too have used denatured alcohol, But only for cleaning purposes I will keep print off your suggestion and put in my paper brain. Dano research shows than after only 21 days we start to forget things we just learned 21 days prior, pretty amazing. Thank GOD FOR PRINTERS!
Thanks for all your help gentleman, Tim Red Robin Creatives
- AnotherDano
- 4 Star Member
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Re: Patina
AIRFLOWKID wrote:Dano research shows than after only 21 days we start to forget things we just learned 21 days prior, pretty amazing. Thank GOD FOR PRINTERS!
Bill and I can tell you; That's "dog days".
It might be 21 days for most of you. But for the rest of us, it's only 3.
Dano Roberts
droberts@ironpequod.com
PlasmaCam DHC-2 v3.11
Hypertherm PowerMax-30
Serving Laramie, Wy since Thursday
droberts@ironpequod.com
PlasmaCam DHC-2 v3.11
Hypertherm PowerMax-30
Serving Laramie, Wy since Thursday
- steelfx
- 4 Star Elite Contributing Member
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- Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:09 am
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Re: Patina
Bill,
Thanks for your help. The auburn rust patina is a product from Kings that I was trying out before a issue a bulk purchase.Problem with them is that there is no tech support. That is why I was so glad to see you introduce your products, You along with others such as Jason and Gary offer a great product but more importantly offer outstanding customer service, so to make a long story short it is a acid based etch patina. Trying to get ready for show at Humane Society in the spring, Very disappointed when I seen what was happening. Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated!
Hi Tim,
Sorry for the slow response, but I have a couple of thoughts to share. First, April (parrotlady) was 'spot-on' about the need for thorough drying of the metal and patina prior to clear-coating. But, I would highly encourage you to use clean, dry shop air instead of using a heat gun. Heat will adversely affect the color of the patina & speed up any flash-rust that forms prior to clear-coating. The reason your parts darkened is exactly what April mentioned: iron oxide formation UNDER the clear-coat. Before applying ANY clear-coat or sealer, there will always be a small amount of flash rust, which actually looks green under magnification. You MUST remove the flash rust PRIOR to clear-coating. I use a lint-free Tack Rag & very lightly wipe the piece that has been patina'd. You don't need to rub, scrub or burnish, just lightly let the tack rag pick up the flash rust. This will not hurt the patina or affect the color. You are now ready for Clear-Coat,
my absolute favorite being Deltron DC-3000. I won't use anything else & I've tried dozens & dozens of different types.
If I have a piece that has a lot of delicate areas that aren't conducive to tack-ragging, I will spray a tie-bond coat prior to the final top-coat. I've not had any problems with de-lamination of the top-coat OR continued rusting between the substrate & clear-coat when using this method.
I do not encourage or endorse the use of Clear-Powder-Coat over a Patina'd piece of art. Again, the heat of the powder-coating will inevitably darken the patinas & force any remaining moisture from within the steel surface profile to "flash" under the clear-coat.
The Flash Rust acts as a Powdered Release Agent which is exactly what you do not want!
Hope this makes sense. It will be covered in more detail in my book, which is scheduled for download on February 6th.
Bill Worden
Thanks for your help. The auburn rust patina is a product from Kings that I was trying out before a issue a bulk purchase.Problem with them is that there is no tech support. That is why I was so glad to see you introduce your products, You along with others such as Jason and Gary offer a great product but more importantly offer outstanding customer service, so to make a long story short it is a acid based etch patina. Trying to get ready for show at Humane Society in the spring, Very disappointed when I seen what was happening. Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated!
Hi Tim,
Sorry for the slow response, but I have a couple of thoughts to share. First, April (parrotlady) was 'spot-on' about the need for thorough drying of the metal and patina prior to clear-coating. But, I would highly encourage you to use clean, dry shop air instead of using a heat gun. Heat will adversely affect the color of the patina & speed up any flash-rust that forms prior to clear-coating. The reason your parts darkened is exactly what April mentioned: iron oxide formation UNDER the clear-coat. Before applying ANY clear-coat or sealer, there will always be a small amount of flash rust, which actually looks green under magnification. You MUST remove the flash rust PRIOR to clear-coating. I use a lint-free Tack Rag & very lightly wipe the piece that has been patina'd. You don't need to rub, scrub or burnish, just lightly let the tack rag pick up the flash rust. This will not hurt the patina or affect the color. You are now ready for Clear-Coat,
my absolute favorite being Deltron DC-3000. I won't use anything else & I've tried dozens & dozens of different types.
If I have a piece that has a lot of delicate areas that aren't conducive to tack-ragging, I will spray a tie-bond coat prior to the final top-coat. I've not had any problems with de-lamination of the top-coat OR continued rusting between the substrate & clear-coat when using this method.
I do not encourage or endorse the use of Clear-Powder-Coat over a Patina'd piece of art. Again, the heat of the powder-coating will inevitably darken the patinas & force any remaining moisture from within the steel surface profile to "flash" under the clear-coat.
The Flash Rust acts as a Powdered Release Agent which is exactly what you do not want!
Hope this makes sense. It will be covered in more detail in my book, which is scheduled for download on February 6th.
Bill Worden
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- 2.5 Star Member
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Re: Patina
Bill,
Your response time was find, not a life or death situation. I understand completely your explanation. No heat gun, clean, dry shop air. So I assume I will need to remove the old finish and start over correct?
Crying in my shop, Tim
Your response time was find, not a life or death situation. I understand completely your explanation. No heat gun, clean, dry shop air. So I assume I will need to remove the old finish and start over correct?
Crying in my shop, Tim
- steelfx
- 4 Star Elite Contributing Member
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Re: Patina
Yeah, pretty much. Time to start over. But, don't feel like you're alone--I had to start over once. A whole bunch of times! Hit it w/ a 36 grit AVOS wheel on a 4" grinder, then polish w/ 120 grit flap disc & it won't take long at all to have it (or them) ready for patina.