Racking my brain with patina. School me start to finish

[gamble]

So I made 5 little pieces about 12" wide. Ground the backs down, welded on some tabs and then ready for patina.
I HATE using acid but it was nice outside and I had some so I threw them on a piece of wood on the grass and poured some on and let it sit for 10 minutes for the first one. Grabbed it and hit it with my flap wheel ( a dull 36grit is all i had or a new one)
Water, sprayed with copper fx, then the gun blue and some water on top of that. Got a great looking finish. So i put it to the side and grabbed the next one. This one I didn't hit with the flap wheel (a much more of a dull finish). Out of 5 of them 4 turned out great and 1 turned out too dark so I attempted to re do it at least 4 other times and it's still dull. Anyway, I had all 5 done and walked away for 5 minutes to clean my mess, when I looked at them they were all pretty dull and looked like crap.
Like what the back side of the acid looks like.

Did I let them sit too long before applying a clear coat? Did I not dry them off quick enough?
Ordered some 120grit wheels for polishing. But from my testing it seems the metal will polish much easier and nicer when soaked in acid for a few minutes.

[gamble]

Here are some pictures so you can see what I am talking about

[muzza]

In the pictures it looks like you still have some mill scale. I can't get Bills patinas here in Oz but the ones I've used don't work too well unless the mill scale is removed. They show the symptoms you are mentioning, dark, dull, blotchy, uneven unless all the metal is clean and shiny.
Murray

[gamble]

Hmmm. I guess that's possible. It's hard to hit it with a flap wheel to get it shiny clean without putting marks on it. That's why I figured the acid would do a better job.

I'm going to try a new flap wheel tomorrow morning and try to get these to look better. I have a party where people want to buy them so I gotta see what I can do.

[rdj357]

I soak my smaller pieces in an acid bath, just a simple plastic tub I bought at the discount store. The millscale is gone and any dross that's left just washes off. I still use a 120 grit flap disk to get nice and shiny but I bet a finer grit would make less marks. i just try to place the marks so the accent the piece.

I can't speak to the bluing because I've never used it but I'd think it would be much like the black by nature/definition. Use sparingly and expect dramatic impact......

Here's a piece I acid soaked, Copper FX, Torch FX around the edges, then some dye for rose and stem then clear coated. Pretty vibrant reactions and colors if you start with bright and clean. I'm still learning!!!

LiveLaughLoveSmall.jpg

[gamble]

Looks nice, but why so dull?

[rdj357]

The picture doesn't really show the sheen well. It was far from a great picture to start with but after shrinking it down to post it looks a lot more dull than it is.

[gamble]

So went back at it again today. Took all 5 pieces and let them soak in a tube with acid with some water as well for about 25 minutes for the first one and 45 minutes for the second. The other 3 I will get to tomorrow.
So I ground them down as best as I could. Kind of hard when they aren't flat because I put hangers on the back. Had to do them a few times because I didn't like some spots.
The gun blue is great when it works well and sometimes it turns grey and sometimes it doesn't. It's strange. So I did two of these and butterfly and they all turned out really damn nice. As I was drying them off with the air compressor I can see them starting to get a little dull. Then did some glitter clear coat. Drys in 20 minutes so I grab them and the results are now less than I expected. Not sure why but it some areas turn this ugly color.




Any idea why? They looked great at first but after drying and clear it's meh

[rdj357]

Shoot I think they're looking pretty good, better for sure - especially the indian.

I still see some spots that look like some mill scale was left. Was that on purpose? I do leave some at times to add some different effects to the piece.

I'm not seeing the sheen on your pieces either, might be the same picture issue I was having..... Is it a gloss clearcoat?

Using these is very much a learning process, I'm going to watch Bill's videos again and read his book again too. I learn something new everytime! lol

[gamble]

Yep they are much better but some spots I can't stand the way it looks.
Some spots I can't get the wheel in there to get all the mill off. But I did get about 80% of it off. On the butterfly I got every little bit of mill off, it was all nice and shiny.

What do you guys do for the back sides? They look like puke.

It was a glossy glitter clear coat.


Is bill's book very good? If so I have no problems spending money on it.

I wanted to sell these heads for 35 a piece but with all the grinding and the patina I'm wasting it looks like i'll be 35 into them lol
The backs have a lot of areas to grind so it uses about a flap wheel each one.

[Shane Warnick]

Sooo, here are a few of the issues I think you are having.

First, put them in the acid. Pool acid (muriatic) is what I use. Overnight. As in 12 hours or more. Remove. RINSE with water. A lot. Gotta neutralize that acid. Then there shouldn't be ANY (as in zero, zilch, nada) mill scale left when it comes out of the acid. If you stack them and there is no space between them, there will be spots with scale left. Gotta leave some separation don't stack them flat on one another. After you get them wet rinsing them, you need to dry them before you polish them. Or I do. I use the air gun. Sometimes I use other stuff to speed it up and drive off the water. Then you can LIGHTLY polish with a 120 flap wheel, it will leave some marks but if you use a light touch, it will just be more of a polish. Or you can just leave it dull gray. Looks cool too, especially when throwing copper fx on it.

Then, throw the patina on. Then RINSE to stop the reaction. No rinse, sometimes it keeps going, hence the color variation I think you are seeing. Some of them do better going on dry, some not so much. THEY ALL have to be rinsed to stop the reaction.

Now, you gotta dry them again. REALLY dry. Otherwise you get flash rust (some of the dull shit you are seeing).

Now, clear coat either with a wet spray or powder coat clear. Enjoy.

As far as the backside, well, it's the backside. My backside looks kinda like an ass. Come to think of it, so does my wife's. Matter of fact, the backside of all the stuff I patina looks kinda like ass too. Actually, sometimes it comes out really cool, but it's never on purpose. It's the backside. It goes on the wall. Basically, it's the back. Chillax. Of course, like I said, sometimes it looks neater than the front. Then, we put our left foot in and turn all about. Voila, it's now the front and the front just became the back. Unless there is text. Then, I just take some pictures of the back, and wonder how then hell it happened and what I can do to recreate it.

Shane

[rdj357]

Lol good reply Shane. My wife doesn't think my ass looks as good as it once did btw... lol

Yeah gamble, no more grinding at all on the back. If it wasn't in the acid long enough to dissolve that so it is gone or rinses off with water it wasn't in long enough!

[rdj357]

Oh, and Bill's book is free on his website and it would be a great deal at 1000 times that price!

Seriously, it's time well spent reading.

[gamble]

Interesting..thanks shane. I have a few soaking right now and I will pull them out in the morning.

So you guys don't grind the dross off? Just toss it in the tub huh. I had some sitting in a tub for a week and pulled it out and it still had dross on it.

So it sounds to me like what you are saying is what is happening is flash rush. I dried it off with compressed air and a fan. maybe it was still damp?


I took the last 2 pieces out my trunk I finished earlier today and they rust color is even worse now.

So stay tuned and I'll take pictures for you guys tomorrow.

Is it a problem to leave this tub with muratic acid covered up sitting outside? I can still smell it a little.

[rdj357]

After an overnight soak the dross is either all gone or the few remaining bits wash off immediately with the hose.

Flash rust sure could be a big part sounds like. I get them dry with shop air and don't seem to have too bad a problem with it so sounds like you might be on the right track. Look forward to seeing what you find out there.

I have my tub in the shop and do use a cover that seals. Just make sure wherever you have it that it is safe and prying kids, pets, or well anyone can't accidentally or on purpose find themselves in a bad situation!

[Redneck]

Are you wiping them down good with a tack rag before clear coating???? I find that helps.....seems to me that no matter how quickly you dry the piece, it will get flash rust. Tack rag takes that off.

[gamble]

Ok just to update everyone. Things are MUCH better now.
Here is my process.
Cut, and toss into a bucket of muratic acid (diluted with water)
From my limited experience it seems that as soon as it's mixed it's the strongest. After a week or two or doing a lot of pieces it just seems to not work very well at all so you have to add more acid. So when it's working well I will soak the pieces from anywhere between 15 minutes and overnight. Just depends on when I get to it.
Drop it on the floor to loosen up the dross. 36 grit flap wheel on the back.

On the front I will still use the 36 or if I feel like changing I'll use a 120 grit and it gets polished great.
Then spray with copper, spray with the other color, in this case gun blue. Then rinse it and dry it with shop air. I have been making it a habit to dry both the front and back and get into each little hole as lots of water sits in there. Then I place it in front of a fan while I work on the next piece. Clear coat with some cheap spray paint and done.
MUCH better results.
Thank you everyone.
Also I recently met someone who sells a product that he says is the same as muratic acid, but without the negative affects. No oder, no smell, can get it on your hands. claims you can drink it and only get diaherrea. So he brought me some to test out.

[modelaratrod]

Gamble when I picked up muratic acid at the local home depot they had to kinds, one was stronger and I have it in a 55 gallon drum that seals air right and it eats off all the dross within 2 hours max. I drilled a 5 gallon bucket for small pieces.

[gamble]

Nice!
Is it normal for this to not be as strong the longer it sits?
I noticed on some pieces the milk scale doesn't even come off so I have to keep adding more acid

[Shane Warnick]

Two things come to mind. First, if it works like acid, but you can get it on you, and it will only give you diarrhea, it's probably vinegar. HAS to be an acid of some kind.

Acid off-gases and does get weaker, but I live in the desert, have mine in a tub with a lid, outside, in the sun, and haven't seen an appreciable loss of potency. More than likely, the places where the mill scale isn't coming off is where it is flat on top of another piece. You can use baling or tie wire wrapped around it in a few places to keep it separated, zip ties work well also.

Remember, ACID INTO WATER,, never, never, never water into acid. It can get ugly quick.

Be safe

Shane

[modelaratrod]

From what I remember it's an acid suspended in water and does off gas and evaporate so keeping it sealed up will help it last longer.

[steelfx]

In the pictures it looks like you still have some mill scale. I can't get Bills patinas here in Oz but the ones I've used don't work too well unless the mill scale is removed. They show the symptoms you are mentioning, dark, dull, blotchy, uneven unless all the metal is clean and shiny.
Murray

G'day Murray!

Yes, you can get any or all of my products in Oz. Made 2 shipments just this past week, but the caveat is: Most items, including ALL of the patinas have to be shipped by Ocean Freight. The Dyes can be shipped via UPS Air Int'l or even via the USPS. correction for Muzza: 1 shipment to Australia & the other was to New Zealand.

Re: This Thread...

I see two things that are causing most, if not all of the problem/s.

1) Steel is Not Shiny Enough Before Patina, (in this case, COPPER F/X™) is applied.

2) Most Importantly...The COPPER F/X™ is remaining in contact with the steel way too long. If it starts to dry or precipitate prior to being hit with rinse/neutralization water, it will cause some undesirable darkening/streaking/spots.

So, work quickly with the copper patina, work in the shade or in the shop & try not to let the COPPER F/X™ remain in contact with the steel more than 10-15 Seconds, Max! Less time is even better! And, do NOT go over & over, thinking perhaps that "more is better"...just a light mist of the
COPPER F/X™, covering the entire surface & immediately hit it with at least a mist or shower of clean water. You can even have your rinse water in a pump-type pressurized sprayer for convenience. It only takes about 8 oz. of water to neutralize a piece of steel that is 18" X 36" and just been copper-plated, then move on to your other darkening/colorizing patinas if desired.

COPPER F/X™ is the Only Patina that is this persnickety...all the others are not so time-sensitive. And remember this: The shinier your steel is, the more brilliant the COPPER F/X™ will be.

Thanks!
Bill