Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Cut quality issues can be discussed here, most common issues have been discussed here and should help you.
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plasmafab
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Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by plasmafab »

Hello Everyone. :? I have been reading the postings for quite a while, and keep a note pad handy whenever I am here. What a great website. That said, I think it is time that I ask for some help. Here are the specs that my system is setup with. I built a Torchmate table, 6ft x 12 ft. with a 5 inch water pan a few years ago. I run a Thermal Dynamic A-120 plasma machine, hooked to a SL100 machine torch. (Also have the hand torch for misc. work that isn't on the table)

(But after reading all the posts here, I kind of wish that I would have purchased a Hypertherm system just because of all of Jim's awesome help and input here, and everywhere else that he posts on the net.) Anyway I got what I got, and it seems to work fine. I don't cut much light gauge stuff, mostly 1/4 up through 3/4 in. and use the machine's oxy acct torch on the table for heavier stuff.

I have a home built compressor back in the far corner of the shop apx 48 ft. away, under the stairs that go up to the loft in the back of the shop. The compressor is a 60 gallon horizontal tank, a 2 stage compressor head from a 10HP engine driven portable rig that a friend gave me when he bought a new portable compressor yrs. ago. I run it with a Lesson 5 hp electric motor. Top air pressure shuts off at 142 lbs and I regulate to about 110 lbs to the wall filters. I have checked Jim's input about the air holding steady at required pressure, 70lbs-90lbs at torch for material being cut, and it holds the right amount of air pressure evenly all the time.
I have piping running to the front of the shop where the table is, so the run is about 48 ft., with 4 drops along the wall with ball valves at the bottom of each drop to drain if it were necessary. The table is connected to the last drop in the front of the shop. This is the order that everything hooks up from there.
From the wall fitting a line runs to a harbor freight desiccant filter, then to a motor guard M26 paper filter, then to the A120. I had hoped that by running the air all the way from the back of the shop to the front of the shop that most moisture would be out of the air by the time it got to, and through the 2 filters at the A120. I know the humidity is extremely high here in the greater Seattle Area, particularly in the winter. Whenever I open the ball valve on the bottom of the tank, (I do this every time I go back to change a Johnny Cash cd for a Tanya Tucker one, or a Hank Snow, Ha Ha,,,) water pours out of the tank and then eventually blows clear. Probably about 5 to 10 seconds. Then I always open the next drop along the wall to check how the air feels, then go back front to the table to work. I am frustrated,
I never get more than 50 to 65 pierces from an electrode before the torch begins not wanting to fire, so I change to a new electrode, and sometimes a tip if the parts being cut need a better edge. Then things are back to normal for another 50 or 60 pierces. I run very close to book specs and keep a log of all cuts. This is real frustrating when you have a few 100 gussets to cut or something else of quantity.
Do I defiantly need a refrigerant air dryer for my system? Will it get me into the 100 to 300 pierces that I read about everywhere. Is the unit sold here a good quality one, the macair? I see that Ingersoll rand makes some small units too, as well as speed air, and hankison. All in the 500.00 to 900.00 range. My table works well, my cut quality seems fine, but I just can?t get the amount of pierces that I hear about on plasma spider or elsewhere.
Also how would I size a dryer for my A120, is this little macair unit big enough for what i have. Help.
Thanks in Advance. Frustrated in Seattle plasmafab
M & N Steel CNC
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by M & N Steel CNC »

I was going thru tips and electrodes like crazy, got the ingersol rand air dryer I have cut too many pierces to count with out changing the electrode, change the tip about every full sheet cut.
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fergy
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by fergy »

yes you need one
the people that don't have one probably havnt seen what they can achieve with one
I have one and wouldn't bother cutting if it broke until I could get a new one
so just get one and then the price of consumables is irrelevant cos you don't seem to use any
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by plasmafab »

Thanks, to both of you M&N and Fergy for your input. I have been researching this with a passion and decided you guys are right. So the other night while surfin I came across what looks like a beautiful new looking Speedaire 3YA49 dryer out of some silicon valley pc board manufacturer, for half the cost of the new ones at 800 to 900 dollars plus tax and shipping so almost 1000 dollars, and went ahead and purchased it even has free shipping from E-bay. The guy?s feedback is 100% so am hoping for the best. Should be here by Thursday so you know I am excited to get it plumbed in and working. Also got 20 new electrodes coming from Torch mate this week, they said that ThermaDyne is making a heaver duty tip now for a buck more, so I am going to try these. (Hope the hafnium is about a foot long) so I will get more than 50 pierces. Speedaire is a house brand of Graingers so should be able to get parts if needed in the future. I see that they have a maintenance kit; http://www.grainger.com/product/SPEEDAI ... -Kit-2DAY6 so will look into that when it is all hooked up. Now I just need to decide the proper sequence for everything.
Should it be piped air from compressor 48 ft. away to the drop by the table, then to the HF desiccant filter, then the Motor guard M26 particulate filter, then into the air dryer and onto the table? Hope this is right, Maybe Jim will jump in and set me straight, hope so. Anyway thanks for the input, it did help me decide to spend the bucks. My wife didn't even have a problem with it since I explained that I was saving 500 bucks. Life is good.

PS we are feverishly watching the Iditarod from here and are on pins and needles watching the leaders get close to Nome. Will be another spectacular finish this year. GO Alie!! Just once OK.!!
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jimcolt
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by jimcolt »

Air Dryers are not usually needed with plasma, contrary to a lot of postings I read. In your case however it may be necessary based on the amount of water your compressor is accumulating.

I would put an auto drain on the compressor, then put the refrigerated air dryer a minimum of 20' away from the compressor.....copper line to it is best. Copper and 20' helps to precool the air before it gets to the dryer, making it much more efficient at condensing the moisture from the air. Then put your particulate filter closer to the plasma, with an air inlet pressure gauge right at the inlet (after the filter). The inlet gauge will ensure you get adequate inlet pressure while air is flowing at the torch....refer to T-D's specs for the correct inlet pressure range, likely it should be between 90 and 120 psi.

I live in NH.....only turn my air dryer on during summer months when humidity is high. The rest of the year (September through May) it is off. I generally get 1000 to 2000 starts on a nozzle, almost double on the electrode bedore cut quality is affected. Hypertherm Powermax85. With Your T-D you should get 200 to 400 starts if everything is ideal.

Some plasmas are affected more dramatically by moisture....it is all dependant on the torch design.

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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by plasmafab »

Thanks for the reply Jim, can't wait to get the dryer and get it installed. I now know that i Made a mistake, Ha Ha ,

"I generally get 1000 to 2000 starts on a nozzle, almost double on the electrode before cut quality is affected"

I cant hardly fathom that! Man, I should of bought a Hypertherm, but hind site is always 20/20 dont ya know. Jim, could you explain to me why such a drastic difference between the Thermal dynamics and Hypertherm electrode life. I thought when I bought the A-120 6-7 yrs ago that it was touted as a hell of a machine by my welding supplier, best duty cycle and quick change torch, and all. I was told that Thermal dynamics was a top contender in the plasma field. They must of been getting a big markup,kickback or something on their products . If i can just get up in pierce count after the dryer then I will be happy, as everything else with the machine seems fine. Majority of my cutting is with 40 through 80 amp tips, lots of 60 amp. Thanks again for your reply. Blake

PS I notice that all the info shows that, lets say a Hypertherm powermax 85 machine will cut a lot closer to the material than my A-120, running height is like, .06 where my running height is usually a .16 -.19. Are the machine that different. Thanks, Blake
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by srp »

The tip to work height will be a function of the design of the plasma flame. My TD in it's best days would get up to 2200 starts and 22,000 inches of cut - 18-16 ga. The cut quality of the 40 amp machine tip is pretty good. I like to cut with 30a and TD tip is not designed for a machine application and the quality is not reliable. I am gong to upgrade to Hypertherm. What I see with Hypertherm that I like is their commitment to education. Jim Colt's information is great. Big difference in the two companies. TD's attitude is BIG CORPORATE - Take it or leave it! I'd rather do business with one who appreciates you.
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by _Ogre »

48 ft of piping should give you relatively cool dry air if the piping is run right.
48 ft of level pipe with a 90* down for the plasma drop is one way to insure a steady supply of water to your plasma cutter. :mrgreen:

a couple of thing to help you get dry air: lots of pipe out of the compressor makes for cool air. the main header should gravity drain back towards the compressor to a drain. all drops should come out of the top of the main header (this if nothing else). after setting up 4 different paint shops i use this basic layout for any new shop i plumb. i have learned that 60 ft of black pipe on a block wall will cool most air. cool air is dry air.

i would never use a desiccant dryer on plasma, save that for a paint booth. a refrigerated air dryer too close to your compressor (and heat) is a waste of time and money. a refrigerated air dryer works best with cool air. we do use a refrigerated air dryer but also have 6 to 8 guys in the shop and a paint booth.

our plasma table is 15 ft from the compressor, but has 100 ft of air line in between the plasma table and the compressor.

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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by jimcolt »

Hypertherm has 100 engineers, 20 with pHD's that design and engineer our systems.....torches, consumables, power supplies and all components are engineered and manufactured in our locations in NH. We have over 115 patents related to plasma cutting, mostly patents that directly improve consumable life and cut quality.

Yes, our systems are completely different in design from any other brand. Consumable life, cut quality and reliability are the top priorities with each new design. That is why you usually see a new torch design with each new system that comes from Hypertherm......when we develop new technology we integrate it into our systems.

That being said....your T-D unit should be providing much better parts life than you are getting. I suggest folowing the advice in regards to clean dry air, proper cut heights (per the T-D operators manual). Do not exceed the design amperage for your consumables (no more than 80 amps on an 80 amp tip), proper pierce height, pierce delay time and cut height are alos keys to maximizing consumable life. Last, but not least...use genuine consumables. T-D makes better consumables for their own torches than low cost importers do.

Jim Colt Hypertherm



plasmafab wrote:Thanks for the reply Jim, can't wait to get the dryer and get it installed. I now know that i Made a mistake, Ha Ha ,

"I generally get 1000 to 2000 starts on a nozzle, almost double on the electrode before cut quality is affected"

I cant hardly fathom that! Man, I should of bought a Hypertherm, but hind site is always 20/20 dont ya know. Jim, could you explain to me why such a drastic difference between the Thermal dynamics and Hypertherm electrode life. I thought when I bought the A-120 6-7 yrs ago that it was touted as a hell of a machine by my welding supplier, best duty cycle and quick change torch, and all. I was told that Thermal dynamics was a top contender in the plasma field. They must of been getting a big markup,kickback or something on their products . If i can just get up in pierce count after the dryer then I will be happy, as everything else with the machine seems fine. Majority of my cutting is with 40 through 80 amp tips, lots of 60 amp. Thanks again for your reply. Blake

PS I notice that all the info shows that, lets say a Hypertherm powermax 85 machine will cut a lot closer to the material than my A-120, running height is like, .06 where my running height is usually a .16 -.19. Are the machine that different. Thanks, Blake
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by plasmafab »

Update for anyone interested. I thought that I had better follow through and bring you guys up to date with the results of the new refrigerated air dryer that I now have installed. I was just a little skeptical at first, but was hoping for good results. Without any knowledge of a dryer or really what to expect once it was installed, I started using things last week. Initially I just ran the little black rubber drain hose into a coffee can with a hunk of steel in it for some weight not knowing just how hard it would blow or drain. The downloaded manual for the speed air dryer says that it drains at pressure so I thought it might blow kind of hard. I have never actually heard the drain do anything so I was wondering if it was really working. The dryer gets warm to the touch on the outside of the screen so I assumed it was working. Yesterday I decide to run the drain line through the wall and outside the shop and finally, I did notice that there was water in the coffee can. Cool,! This is working.!! I now have had the same electrode in the SL100 machine torch for about 5 days and am still cutting things and they still look Great. (some difference from getting 40 or 50 pierces), I am just astounded at the difference the dryer seems to be making. I wish now that I would have done this 5 yrs. ago or right in the beginning when I built this table. How could someone of known though. What I have learned over the past 7 yrs. is that no one can even imagine all that there is to learn when getting into plasma cutting with a cnc table. (I?m not talking about grabbing a hand torch on some job site and whacking off a few parts, what?s so complex about that, Nothing I see.) But to actually build a table from scratch, water or other type, make everything come together and work right, learn all the complexities of the cad program, and the operating program for the table itself, and the VTHC, is quite a project. (And I'm learning new stuff every day ). Knowing what I know now, if I had it to do over again I would have flown to Reno for a week, and taken classes from Torch mate to get my feet on the ground in the beginning. There are so many little idiosyncrasies that I have had to learn the slow and hard way over many yrs., it?s just unbelievable. If I would have started with a dryer I probably would have had a lot fewer problems with the table. Man, am I ever glad that I finally got One. !!! The table is now acting like I had always hoped it would. If you?re even considering a dryer for your system, run, don't walk to the nearest retail outlet or EBay sale, and just buy the damn thing. You will never regret it. Thanks for all the input, plasma spider is a wealth of information for anyone using cnc plasma tables.
Happy now in Snohomish WA
PS: I was perusing Torch mate's website yesterday and just for something to do I downloaded their online pdf catalog to look at. Low and behold on page 09 there is a picture of my initial table build all new and plasma quench clean to look at, doesn't look like that anymore. They never even told me, Ha Cool !!
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by danny »

Hi, plasmafab

I was curious if you would mind posting some pictures of your electrodes now that you have the air dryer hooked up.

I'm running a air dryer as well. but my electrodes look about like the ones you posted, never really been happy with them and think I've figured out why! my dryer is 3' from the compressor. THAT WILL CHANGE!! thanks to this thread.

Thanks, Danny
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by _Ogre »

danny wrote:I'm running a air dryer as well. but my electrodes look about like the ones you posted, never really been happy with them and think I've figured out why! my dryer is 3' from the compressor.
your dryer is taking all of it's cooling just to get the air to temp. the cooler you can get the inlet air into the dryer, the better it will work. read the instruction that came with your dryer it will give you an optimum air inlet temp.
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Re: Is a Refrigerated Air Dryer is needed.

Post by danny »

Thanks,Ogre
after reading this thread I did some looking and the recommended air In temp is 175. I'm sure I exceeded that sand blasting the other day. I have already picked up a roll of 3/4"x60" copper to put between the compressor and dryer.

I'm not really sure how? but I got some water out the blow nozzle the other night. so I took the toilet paper filter out, it was dry but their was a little water in the bottom of the filter bowl. my first thought was the filter housing was cracked but it checked out good. This has me kinda stumped. possibly hot air in the line them cooled down?
What are your thoughts?

Thanks, Danny
2X2 Shop built table,proma thc,TB6560 bob
TD cut master 52,SL 100 machine torch
mach3, sheetcam, 26cfm compressor, Ref.air dryer, water seperator, motorguard toilet paper filter
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