Maybe they're new system isn't as popular as they thought it would be

[djreiswig]

Get a free sync cartridge if you buy the adapter.
https://www.hypertherm.com/en-US/landin ... promotion/

[weldguy]

I think there just trying to get people onto these cartridges. I would never switch and hope my "old school" Powermax never dies.

[SegoMan DeSigns]

The SYNC system is for those who can't SYNC their mind with the picture in the owners manual showing what part goes where.. Why would you allow a person that is that out of SYNC next too a 100K CNC table? I'd bet a shiny new quarter this is part of the reason that Jim Colt is no longer with Hypertherm. Have they fixed the OHMIC problems people were having yet??

[djreiswig]

The SYNC system is for those who can't SYNC their mind with the picture in the owners manual showing what part goes where.. Why would you allow a person that is that out of SYNC next too a 100K CNC table? I'd bet a shiny new quarter this is part of the reason that Jim Colt is no longer with Hypertherm. Have they fixed the OHMIC problems people were having yet??

The SYNC is for those who have extra money to throw in the trash.

I think I saw a post here that they redesigned the cartridge to fix the ohmic issue. Somebody bought some and got the old style. Evidently Hypertherm hasn't recalled the cartridges with the issue, but I guess you can exchange them for the new style.

I bought a used 85 a while back as a backup for my 65, so I can stay outta SYNC.

[rdj357]

Have they fixed the OHMIC problems people were having yet??

Yes. They did recall all the original FineCut cartridges but they sell through dealers so some of them ignored the monthly fliers and didn't exchange stock. The fault there is not with Hypertherm. In fact, if anyone has any of the original cartridges that are new or even used up, they will 100% warranty them for you if you take/send them back to your supplier.

I have the adapter - the SYNC is very convenient but will absolutely add to the cost per cut inch. Dramatically? No. Worth it for the small improvements? Nah, I don't think so but it's not some boogey man I'm afraid of. I'd happily buy a new SYNC tomorrow if I needed a machine LONG before I considered any other brand.

[AREA]

I use my consumables to the bitter end. When there no good for making quality cuts on the table they get handed down to the hand torch for hacking things apart. I typically use 2 nozzles to every electrode, and replace my o-rings and swirl ring annually. For me the Sync would likely double or triple my annual consumable costs. For a business larger and more profitable than me they likely wouldn't care, just write it off, but money is tight, I will explore another brand next time around if that unfortunate day ever comes.

[SegoMan DeSigns]

X2 on squeezing ever penny out of them:

Consumable start our new for nested sheets of parts, then downgraded to one of a kind every now & then parts and then to the hand torch.

I posted the following on the original "Not So" SmartSYNC release thread:

Here is my rough cost break down on 65A consumables (I normally run 2 nozzles for every electrode)

$6
$6
$8
--
$20 / 2 = $10 per change avg Vs $53 for the SYNC setup So that is $43 savings per change out.


If you change your consumables twice per:

Month that's $86 x 12 = $1,032 / yr
Week $86 x 52 = $4,472 / yr
Day $86 x 5 x 52 = $22,360 / yr

The new system can be compared to the Lotto as it is a tax on those who are really poor at math..

Keep your eyes on the classifieds for the older units.

[rdj357]

Here is my rough cost break down on 65A consumables (I normally run 2 nozzles for every electrode)

$6
$6
$8
--
$20 / 2 = $10 per change avg Vs $53 for the SYNC setup So that is $43 savings per change out.

How many cut inches per change do you get approximately?

[SegoMan DeSigns]

Here is my rough cost break down on 65A consumables (I normally run 2 nozzles for every electrode)

$6
$6
$8
--
$20 / 2 = $10 per change avg Vs $53 for the SYNC setup So that is $43 savings per change out.

How many cut inches per change do you get approximately?

That is a really good question. I have never tracked it I know I did one sheet of 3/4" with 1 set of 85 amps and still had a lot of life left in them

The Big table has THC The 2x2 does not. but I still get a good service life on both of them..

[cutnweld]

I recently built a trailer, You can see it on the project gallery elsewhere on this forum. I cut the 1/2" flanges on a used tip and electrode. No idea how many inches they had when I started cutting. I put on 2016 inches on the used set yet. How many inches do you figure for a set Robert? I have a brand new unopened Powermax 85 with machine torch and CPC that I may consider selling as I am considering a MAXPRO 200.

[SegoMan DeSigns]

By the time I finished harvesting that piece of 3/4" I had less than a 5 gal bucket of scrap. I think the thing that got to me most over the SYNC system is they had a perfect system and they fixed it till it wasn't. The ability to buy another machine to go with your existing 3 units and share the same consumables is gone.

Watching the 105 cutting 1" plate and turning them into your projects is a site to behold when you think back to how you use to do things prior to the words CNC appearing in your shop.

[rdj357]

I think it's fair to say that the number of pierces and in what material thickness are probably the best factors to consider BUT what typically drives a pricing structure is either cut inches or its closely related brother, time so that's why I was curious. Obviously the thicker the material, the shorter the life as measured in pierces and/or inches but maybe not in time.

As for estimates - probably like the rule of thumbs which is that almost everyone has two - on 14 gauge with FineCut, I expect a range of a few thousand pierces and 8-10,000 inches. That number is different in the humid summers of OK even with a refrigerated air dryer than it is in the dry winter so I just do a lot of guessing. I'm also very guilty in my old age of cutting a wide range of different things with a handful of different sets of consumables and not knowing for sure, for instance, how much 1/4" that 45a set has cut compared to how much 10 gauge and that makes it hard to measure.

My thing overall is this - I've been self-employed for just short of 30 years. No one likes change. Ever. Even if they come to love it later, at first it is different, untried, new, and annoying. As a function of cost per cut inch of material, be it 20 gauge or 1-1/4" - the consumable cost with plasma is a very, very small consideration. Even then, the things that can be done to improve consumable life such as air quality and height control are often overlooked while shopping for who has a 25-pack of electrodes for $1.28 less or a 5% off coupon. Consumables are calculated into our cost of goods sold and as such, are a function of our selling price. I would hope that if you were changing consumables twice a day or more (your $20k increase estimate above) that you'd be billing out about $250,000 just for the cutting time alone not counting any secondary processing. Even considering depreciation, overhead, and profit, that wouldn't be horrible and I'd bet there would be some labor savings in consumable changes in addition to possibly more efficient use of consumable life, longer life, etc.

It's not unlike how we never hear large oil companies complain about the cost of crude oil. When it is high, whatever the reason, they post record profits because their profit margin is a percentage of total sales.

[cutnweld]

Thanks for the info. I do find it hard to perfectly track consumable life as I'm always changing out sizes for different applications etc. So in the scenario you gave above, 10,000 inches cutting at the fine cut book speed of 220 ipm is 45 and 1/2 minutes cutting time plus pierce delay etc etc. In the example I gave above I cut 2016 inches at 45 ipm. 44.8 minutes arc on plus pierce time etc. Starting with used consumables but similar arc on time probably. I have in the past run several hours on a set, but it was very long runs not much piercing. My thing is this. If you are cutting mostly thin gauge metal, I think SYNC will work fine. But woe to the rest of us who regularly cut and pierce 1/2 inch and thicker, all the way to 1 3/4. When the slag blows back on a pierce, there goes the cartridge! No chance to clean it out. No chance to replace the tip that got abused on the pierce it wasn't made to do in the first place. No problem just flush another 50-60 down the drain instead of $10

[rdj357]

But woe to the rest of us who regularly cut and pierce 1/2 inch and thicker, all the way to 1 3/4. When the slag blows back on a pierce, there goes the cartridge! No chance to clean it out. No chance to replace the tip that got abused on the pierce it wasn't made to do in the first place. No problem just flush another 50-60 down the drain instead of $10

I have cut some 3/4 with the 85a SYNC cartridge and it works great. The pierce height is a tiny bit higher than Duramax (0.25" vs 0.24") but the cut height is about doubled (0.125" vs 0.06"). I haven't cut enough of it consistently to have any personal data but I would almost bet that the SYNC will actually outperform with thicker metal compared to thin. I only have an 85 but if I were cutting that thick all day, every day I'd probably want to go with the 125 (which is not SYNC and uses different consumables as it is the Hyamp torch) or at least the 105 SYNC. Piercing 3/4 with an 85 wrecks the shield much faster as well as the nozzle so that $10 change really goes up to $26 for consistent cut quality.

It will be interesting to see how these discussions age when we look back on them a few years from now when more of the SYNC machines are out in the market. Will the good outweigh the bad or will it be like New Coke? Only time will tell.

[PlasmaDon]

When I got my new table, I wanted to splurge on a shiny new 85.
However SYNC hit at the same time, and the prices went up (2021 or so).

So I manage with my old MAX 100 and a p-80 aftermarket torch.

Oxy/propane for anything over 1/2".

Even the local dealer that sells both Hypertherm & TD, says Hypertherm has the best cut quality, better than TD.
However, ever since SYNC hit (and he has parts in stock for them) most all sales are TD.

[rick_b]

I'm sorry, but I think the SYNC system is a lemon!
We have 45Fines which have less than 50 piercings on them which are DOA and no one from Hypertherm can tell me why.

[cutnweld]

I like the finecut because the peirce height is so high it seems the tips dont build up as quickly. Other than that.... No comment. I have made comments in the past and dont want to waste any more time. I wont buy one tho

[rdj357]

Yes, I think previous discussions led many of us to the assumption that the problem is the table and not the cartridges. I started a full 5’x10’ sheet nested full of artwork stuff so lots of pierces and inches of cut. Closed the door and went to town for lunch. When I returned, the sheet was done with no errors or troubles. This doesn’t happen every time, sometimes a tip up causes a torch hit material error or there is a misfire but for the most part it just works well.

[rick_b]

Yes, and some information both of you have given has helped. But when we have around 25 boxes of 45F used so far and we have a spread of 50P to 1263P on them and all have EOL errors, our cost for consumables has gone up 3X what it was with the old setup. We also use 45 65 85 and 105 consumables and they also give us mixed returns.

As for the machine, this is no homemade or entry-level machine it is a full commercial machine built to run 24/7 (sorry to be a bit harsh)with a majority of Hypertherm electronics.

Don't get me wrong most of the time when it cuts it does do a nice job, but the short life span and the extra cost of consumables really outweigh the cut quality.

[caretech]

I've been running my Duramax-style fine cut tips a little higher than book specs here with good results. They still build up and give false ohmic probes every so many pierces, but doing a +3 volt over-ride to the THC in qtplasmac, just nudging the torch upward a bit, seems to make a big difference in how long I can cut before I need to pause to clean slag out of the tip.

I'd like to try the adapter with the new fine cuts sometime (after my box of 25 fine cut tips is used up maybe, ha) but otherwise from what I'm hearing I'm glad I got one of the very last old-style systems available when I built my table. Not sure what I'd do if I needed to replace it. Might consider competing brands.

[rdj357]

Rick, I very much understand your frustration and what you’re having to deal with. I do understand the investment in a quality machine and associated support and how sometimes the manufacturer blames the 3rd party integration (Hypertherm) rather than acknowledging an issue with their machine and vice versa. I wish they would get their heads together and find a better solution for you because the fact that thousands of other owners are having great results with the SYNC cartridges doesn’t help you a bit but it does point to there being a problem with that full commercial machine.

I’m very glad you’re getting a little improvement, no matter how small. At the end of the day, we all want success and profit to be maximized!

[PlasmaDon]

Yeah.....let's put an RFID chip reader on the working end of a plasma cutter torch......yup the idea is GREAT !

[rick_b]

rdj357 you would think they could get together and fix it and I have had both their "number one guys" here at the same time looking/working on the machine. Sadly a year in, the Edge Connect/phoenix software still crashes half a dozen times a day the THC is still inconsistent and the EtherCAT interface drops out several times a day and all I get is "we will look into it" "yer that's normal" or the best one "it's not our problem"

[rdj357]

rdj357 you would think they could get together and fix it and I have had both their "number one guys" here at the same time looking/working on the machine. Sadly a year in, the Edge Connect/phoenix software still crashes half a dozen times a day the THC is still inconsistent and the EtherCAT interface drops out several times a day and all I get is "we will look into it" "yer that's normal" or the best one "it's not our problem"

Ugh, So sorry you're fighting it. I don't know how the consumer protection laws work for you there but you'd think they would have some liability with such an expensive machine. Inconsistent height is the number one killer of FineCut consumables.

[cutnweld]

I honestly dont believe your finecut problems are related to sync. X2 on the fact that finecuts need correct height while cutting and piercing